Speaker 1: 0:14

Welcome back, little Helpers, to Season 5 of A Little Help for Our Friends. We are excited to be back. We are excited to be back. I have started my internship, um, which is now actually further along than kibbe was when we first started this podcast. So that is how much time has blown by. Whoa, you can believe it, I know. So in looking at what episodes we should do this season, because we've done a lot and most of the obvious ones are kind of ticked off now. So we are really trying which is kind of exciting because we're trying to get more into the nuances now, I think, of some of the major topics.

Speaker 1: 0:56

We look back at one of our all time most popular episodes, which was about toxic family members, and so we wanted to do kind of a follow-up episode of that. You know, not just how to deal in the day-to-day with our toxic family members, but do we take a break? Do we cut contact? Do we resume contact? So today we're going to be talking about this issue of estrangement and kibbe is the expert of this hour, having just attended workshop. So I'm going to be deferring to your knowledge a lot, kibbe, and I'm excited for this. Um. This is also a pretty personal topic, especially for kibbe. My family has some dynamics I'll talk about. But, um again, I think if any of you are dealing with this, you might relate a lot to Kibbe's story. So, kibbe, welcome back as well to a little help for our friends. How are you?

Speaker 2: 1:54

Thank you. I'm doing okay. I got through a lot of my cancer treatment and I am officially cancer free. So yeah, so yeah, that that's been. That was a journey that was really. Sometimes it just feels like a you know a blip in time. It's kind of like COVID, where the world moved on but my I was stuck in a weird hole. But I'm officially cancer free. I have a lot of treatment to do to prevent it from coming back, but I'm feeling better and better and closer to my you know, normal self, whatever that means.

Speaker 2: 2:30

So I'm really I don't know. It's making me really really grateful, like I'm really grateful for all the support I've gotten. I'm grateful for the treatment, that I'm alive Just like really simple stuff, that I'm alive, just like really simple stuff. And I'm really fired up right now about what we're building with Cool Mind. We're doing building a community and coaching app for loved ones of people with mental illness, so like, really, you guys. So I'm really excited about that because, you know, it's one thing to do this podcast and kind of speak on these topics, but every time one of you reaches out to us and talks to us and says how this impacted you or made you think differently about your relationships.

Speaker 2: 3:14

it's just like so it's the best, it's like you know, it's everything yeah, it's like the best part and it just makes me want to do that even more and really help people like on the ground when they're going through the difficulty. So a lot of exciting stuff coming up. Go to Kulamindcom, you can. You could reach out to me, kibbe at Kulamind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom to ask more. And yeah, especially in the show notes I'll always put where you can learn more, where you could join the community, where you can get the app. And especially for our listeners, I will be doing one on one coaching for you know, dealing with a loved one with mental illness, and really big discounts for our listeners.

Speaker 1: 4:04

So yeah, oh, I didn't know that. The discount for little helpers.

Speaker 2: 4:08

Yeah, that's pretty steep discount too, especially for the for the first client.

Speaker 1: 4:12

So okay, yeah, yeah, I've been, I thank God, and not currently in need of your services. But I have friends who you know are dealing with like relationships where their boyfriend is really depressed, or you know with like their mom, or you know the girlfriend is like narcissistic or, you know, has BPD, and I'm like, oh, I wish it were my expertise to help you, you know, with this person. But I do know someone for that.

Speaker 2: 4:52

How are you? How's internship? You've moved I moved.

Speaker 1: 4:57

I'm living in the Upper West Side and then moving to Harlem. I'm working at the Bronx VA. The people there are really cool. So far, I feel way less anxiety at the VA than I did at Duke, because someday we'll do a grad school episode maybe.

Speaker 2: 5:14

And.

Speaker 1: 5:15

I'll talk about the trauma that was my first three years at Duke and certain issues that I encountered there, but it's just been a breath of fresh air to start fresh and be among New Yorkers. I was very concerned that New York was going to seduce me again and so far I've been safe from that. I think I will probably want to return to North Carolina at the end of this year and start a family. I don't know how you do it, raising a kid here, but it looks extremely stressful.

Speaker 2: 5:52

Wow. So, being back, you're like, no, I don't want this, or are there things? That like appeal to you or makes you feel excited.

Speaker 1: 6:01

There are totally things that appeal to me mostly the restaurants makes you feel excited. There are totally things that appeal to me, mostly the restaurants, um, but beyond I mean the restaurants and my ability to transport myself. I like being able to be at, you know, go to any part of the city at any time day. I can't drive, that's why I say that but the city used to like make me feel so alive. It gave me the exact things I was most looking for, and I just don't think I'm looking for those things anymore, and so I'm like oh, you know, new York, I will forever love it.

Speaker 1: 6:39

I will forever love it for being what it was to me and I just think that I have different goals now, and having different goals means that certain aspects of the city, like the crowds, um, and people letting their dogs shit on the sidewalk and not picking it up is like those things are standing out a little bit more than they did previously but it's so funny how much things can change, like Like we just you know, we talked so much on this podcast about how do you know if this is the right person?

Speaker 2: 7:09

What do you do in the future? How do you plant like? And sometimes you just don't know. You can make educated guesses about yourself and what you care about, but sometimes you just don't know what's gonna happen in the future. Where are you gonna build a family? What's that going to be like?

Speaker 1: 7:23

it's just nuts yeah, I think you know, I think in psychology and in social media we do a lot of pathologizing like, oh you know, I'm not, I ruin all my, I sabotage all of my relationships. There must, I must be a narcissist or I must have avoidant attachment style. It's like maybe you just haven't developed yet fully. Yeah, you know, like maybe just cook for a few more years and then see where you are.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Um, because I mean little helpers, thanks for growing up with us. I mean we've changed so much and a lot of the things we saw is like core pathologies for just, I don't know, we just had some growing up to do. And I don't even mean like we just had to become the better people that you become when you grow up, like, no, it's just your needs change, your goals change and those can become more or less in harmony with your environment and with your circumstances. So, and I've started thinking about even personality disorders largely as just developmental disorders, like somebody stuck in development, and to me that feels like a more empathic way of thinking about people.

Speaker 2: 8:35

For sure. That's so crazy. You just brought me back like four years five years when we started this and how different we were like for four years five years when we started this and how different we were and we've each been through like an engagement, marriage, breakup and grad school. Yeah, you know, just so lost and new loves and having a kid and cancer, our friendship.

Speaker 2: 9:03

You know, going through all this stuff too, yeah, it it's been like. This is one of the things that's like a constant in my life, which is crazy if you think about it. Like nothing else is a constant. It's like this. This is the thing that's, you know, been the same for years. So that's true, thank you yeah, well, thank you. Now talk about cutting people off.

Speaker 1: 9:32

Well, hey, Kibbe, why don't you get us started with this? How?

Speaker 2: 9:36

would you introduce this topic, so I didn't know there was a name for it. I, ever since we've done those episodes on dealing with toxic family members or the breaking up you know episodes and dealing with narcissistic abuse, right, when you're in a really difficult relationship, how do you know when to stay in it and work on it versus break up? I think this is a particularly tricky with family members because it's you could break up with friends, you could break up with partners, but you'll always be mother and daughter or father and son, right, you always have that familial connection and cutting off contact. You have to do that actively, right? And I didn't know the word is estrangement. And I didn't know the word is estrangement.

Speaker 2: 10:24

And I just happened to take these workshops by Dr Joshua Coleman, who's in private practice, who's an expert in estrangement, and I really didn't think much of it. I thought, oh cool, you know I'm learning more about family therapy, and then I felt like the entire workshop was speaking about my life. I was like, oh my God, I was like crying, watching a Zoom, like a webinar, and yeah, so I just. It just really resonated with me and I don't know what the different definitions are, but at least it's when family members don't speak anymore, right, or they're out of contact or they're you know quote icing each other out, and it's very commonly with an adult child and their parent, mostly women.

Speaker 1: 11:20

Women mostly cutting off Okay.

Speaker 2: 11:23

No, I think it actually depends. I think there was some research showing that, especially with mental illness, there's a lot of issues with the mother and with like gender and identity issues there's a lot of estrangement from fathers.

Speaker 1: 11:41

You could probably guess why from fathers and you could probably, you know, guess why this is. This is an interesting topic from a therapist perspective too, and I know that the workshop was talking about this, but I've certainly and I know many therapists well, all therapists really have had I'm worth it. Tell me about your mother profession. You know so like.

Speaker 1: 12:03

We've all had patients who tell us or describe horribly unhealthy dynamics with one or both parents, and I've had cases where the continued contact with that parent is clearly disrupting my patient's mental health. And you're on your patient's side, you know like so strongly and so you want part of you wants to just be like stop talking to her, like stop. And you also have to hold that you're not getting the mother's side or the father's side and that there's a real, there's also real damage by looking at the one person who has been attached to you for your entire life and saying that you're not going to, that that person's not going to be in your life anymore and so it's. It's going to be tricky as a therapist as well.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Yeah, that was most of my questions in the workshops, like what do you do if you're a therapist or a loved one of someone and they're complaining about their parents and you think, oh God, like they should just stop talking to that person? Yeah, and that, actually, you know, the workshop was talking about how estrangement is on the rise now, where it's more and more common that people cut off their parents. A lot of it because psychologists, their therapists, will say, oh wow, sounds like your mom's a narcissist, don't you know? Maybe you should not talk to them ever again and so, yeah, so, like you know, therapists are part of the problem.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Seriously, you get one side right and sometimes that's not always accurate. The way we would describe our parents or the people that we have conflict with, it's not always true. Like maybe that person, especially with the word narcissist. We like to call moms or parents narcissists and really that tends to mean you experience them as self, you know, a self-absorbed and emotionally unavailable. There could be a lot of reasons for that right, so it's tricky I think so, just to kind of position our biases here.

Speaker 1: 14:18

So you are and we'll go into this more but you are taking some space from your mother. So you, you're kind of, you are the child of this dynamic. You have a great understanding of the child and also the therapist. I have understanding as a therapist. My family situation is that. So my sister has been alienated from her children, that's awful.

Speaker 1: 14:40

And so I have sympathy for the mother, and so I have sympathy for the mother, and my sister is not estranging her, so I don't know if that's gonna be used as a verb, but from my mother, but she is accusing my mother of a lot

Speaker 1: 15:03

of these things that go along with estrangement, and so once again I also have more sympathy for the mother. But then I have the role as a therapist, and usually that role is more of like wanting space from parent. So I don't know, I've, I've, I've got. I feel, like we're both positioned in interesting ways to be having this discussion.

Speaker 2: 15:19

Yeah, no, I really, I really like it actually it being called attention to because I think this, I really like it actually it being called attention to because I think this the distance in these difficult relationships is seems to be like part of these relationships, but there's actually names and reasons why, like I, what when there's a divorce, there seems to be, you know, that's a one pathway to estrangement and often that's through parent alienation, right Like one parent pitting the kids against the other parent or like separating them from the other one right so and then there's the pieces of mental illness on both sides.

Speaker 2: 15:56

right, the parent could have mental illness that the child can feel like is too much to handle or it's just unhealthy. But an interesting thing that the workshop talked about was that adult children with mental illness sometimes estrange themselves from their parents because maybe they struggled all their lives and it gives them somewhere to put a cause and blame to their mental illness. Right, there's like I have a trauma narrative it's from, it's the parents' fault and it just like roots it to a person that you could separate from.

Speaker 1: 16:36

Yes. So, I'm aware of that dynamic playing out.

Speaker 2: 16:40

Not to say like parents are not, don't contribute to mental illness. I mean, we know that a lot of it comes down to like the dynamic with the parents, but we do know that you know, back when Freud's day used to be all about the mom. Dad, it's also the siblings, it's also where you grew up, it's also your culture. It's also your school, social media, the culture, right. There's just so many factors that go into your growth that the mom could be a big figure, but it's not probably the only thing to blame.

Speaker 1: 17:16

Yeah, I think an important thing to talk about in this episode is maybe there's a misunderstanding that people have that like like the tell me about your mother kind of therapy is a way to blame somebody else for your problems, like, oh, it was my mother's fault, got it? That's why I am the way I am, and that is not the goal of therapy. It's to say, okay, what factors? You know, was I raised in? Mother? No, mother, all these factors you're talking about. You know, how do my, how do my current behaviors make sense in light of my learning history? And then how can I, um, you know, learn new things?

Speaker 1: 17:57

and accept things and understand things better, not blame or victimize, and I think sometimes people want to stop at that step.

Speaker 2: 18:11

Yeah, yeah, the blaming, the blaming and calling them a narcissist would is. I know this personally. It feels so relieving because it's such a simple answer right, you could distance yourself. You get power from it. You get power as a child who's felt powerless in many ways and now you're like, oh, there's a name for this and there's a way to push this away, and that feels good, right, but that doesn't actually fix everything.

Speaker 2: 18:40

I was actually surprised to learn that estrangement is not just in situations where one party was abusive. That's what I kind of assume. But it's on the rise now because we have, like, more and more helicopter parenting, which is crazy. It's like we have such a need to involve yourself in all different aspects of our lives, child, you know, raising our children, our career and everything like that and we have less help than ever before. So moms are really involved, and not just moms. Parents are really involved with their kids compared to the past few decades, which is good because you know there's more quality time.

Speaker 2: 19:33

But what that might mean is that parents now are really over-involved in people's lives and their kids' lives and identify as a mom right, and identify with that relationship and the newer generation like us, we're so in a culture of individualism that defining who we are is defined like in opposition. Right Like I'm, I am rebelling against my parents and I'm finding my own way, and I'm it's like I have to shove someone away to become me, whereas the parents you know that our parents generation grew up at a time when you had an obligation to your parents right Like you. Actually, you know there was some expectation you have to respect your elders. Right, right, like. So there's, you know there's like this cultural divide where we're like no, I'm only going to relate to people who help me grow and support me and emotionally pay attention to me and support my mental health, whereas our parents are like well, I just put up with it because my mom was my mom and I didn't ask questions. So it's been interesting to think about that cultural shift.

Speaker 1: 20:42

It's interesting also to think about it in light of the research that helicopter parenting is really bad for kids and it would be interesting bad for kids in collectivist societies.

Speaker 1: 20:51

I don't know.

Speaker 1: 20:52

I mean there might be, um, there might be some difference there, that maybe individuation is more important in individualized, like individualistic countries. But this sense of like, you know, protecting kids from the outside world, uh, supervising them constantly, it's correlated and potentially causal of part of this mental health crisis and so, in a way, it is something to move away from and it's not like it's with malintent. I mean, these parents are wanting to keep their kids safe and close, and that has been traditionally called good parenting, so I don't know what that means. I mean it is important to individuate, it's important to get to know yourself, to test your footing in the world, and if you have somebody who's preventing you from doing that, then how will you develop? And, as we just talked about, development is very important, but is cutting off the only solution? I'm wondering if a lot of this estrangement is coming from people not having the skills to intervene at a more moderate level or intermediate level interesting to talk about when we talk about interventions, but so it sounds like helicopter parenting is a cause.

Speaker 1: 22:18

um, there are. It's just that political differences that are also causing estrangement. Is this, do they say? This is literally like my dad's a trump supporter. Therefore, I cut off. I know we talked before this episode a little bit about um like queer kids not being accepted by their parents and therefore cutting them off it seems like a different yeah, apparently, um, apparently, the political differences or, um, gender and gender identity issues.

Speaker 2: 22:50

That is a source of parents cutting, uh, cutting off the kids, which, which is less common. By and large, it's the kids cutting off the parents, but, yeah, who they chose to marry, right? Or if the adult child identifies with a different sexuality than you know what the parents find is appropriate, or it was in their values or religion, then that could be a source of cutting off the adult child. But yeah, most of the time it's kids cutting off the parents and for many of us, that's a sign of actually taking care of ourselves, right? There's actually more benefits to the children estranging their parents than for the parents. The parents are apparently only feel negative emotions shame, guilt, anger, loneliness but the adult children are like no, this is what I need to do to protect my mental health.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Yeah, I mean, I imagine when parents are cutting off their children, it has more to do, like you were saying, with disapproval. Yeah, I feel I have to cut you off because you are living a life of sin.

Speaker 1: 24:04

That does not agree with my values. Yeah, um, which is not the same thing. The other case I can see is cutting off a child who's, like, heavily addicted to drugs or something, who's causing absolute chaos, maybe to your other kids, and that would be an absolutely gut-wrenching decision. Um, so yeah, I don't. It's. It's hard to see positive benefit, like benefits, being conferred on the parents in these situations yeah, for me it's.

Speaker 2: 24:32

I've been thinking a lot about the image that I learned in family therapy recently, where families are like porcupines, all trying to huddle together and in the cold and in order to stay warm they have to get close to each other. But as soon as they get too close they start to prick each other with their quills, so they have to back out and give each other space, and apparently the family system is really a negotiation of that distance. Are we too close? Are we too far? What? How are we individuating from each other, giving each other space but also depending on each other and yeah, I thought I did that every christmas, do you?

Speaker 1: 25:12

how? So? I mean, every christmas, it's like so excited to go home and get there and there's a great homecoming, you know, and then all the kids come in and we just start pricking each other in some way or another.

Speaker 2: 25:28

How do you guys like negotiate space? How do you do that? Oh, okay, so your sister doing you were like, you're like and we all.

Speaker 1: 25:37

But well, my brothers might have an antler contest in there, you know, and then like, maybe some dynamics will come around about an antler contest. Yeah, like some people might say, a pissing contest you know, like two bucks, with their antlers having to prove their dominance interesting, interesting yeah, that's what my mom always called it when they would got an antler contest, you know.

Speaker 1: 26:04

And then it's just like how, my sister's an addict, you know. And so it's like, how involved are we going to be in this? Oh, she drank, insulted, freaked out my parents. Now what? How is the family system going to reorganize? What are we going to do about alcohol? Oh, traditionally, that's the way we actually get along. Oops, don't have that anymore. Okay, now I got to figure something else out. Now there are a bunch of kids like grandkids. Um, you know, like who? If, does the, does the grandparent have any parenting say? Or is it only the direct a difference in? Do we think that the, the parents treated them differently.

Speaker 2: 27:00

or if there's one kid who's like quote, quote the black sheep, that one typically will kind of remove themselves from the family or like lash out and yeah, so there's a there, there could be sibling estrangement, but you know, often that's like within that kind of web, oh, yeah, I know, I mean my sister's, 15 years older than me.

Speaker 1: 27:21

She was the golden child growing up. She has an extremely successful career and then she developed severe alcoholism and I never felt like I could live up to her growing up. But interesting thing happens when there's a 15-year age gap. One is that, as she was starting to pass her prime in age, I was starting to come into mine.

Speaker 2: 27:41

And.

Speaker 1: 27:41

I think that introduces an interesting dynamic. When my parents were raising her they had a lot less money than when they were raising me, and so she saw me as this spoiled brat who didn't deserve things I got. And an interesting thing happens when the golden child has a big fall from grace and I start ascending in certain ways. You know like all of that has been a cause for complicated relations between us that I'm constantly navigating. Do you decide to take space from her? I'll take space. I don't explicitly. I'm pretty much against the idea of ever like cutting anybody off in my?

Speaker 1: 28:24

family myself, but I certainly I mean you have to take space from addiction.

Speaker 2: 28:29

I don't know.

Speaker 1: 28:30

I don't know how anybody can stay up close and personal with it eternally. Yeah, yeah, and there might be less expectation.

Speaker 2: 28:34

So I don't know how anybody can stay up close and personal with it eternally, yeah yeah, and there might be less expectation that sisters speak on a regular basis. So you taking space might not seem different, but for me, to not take space from one of my parents is a decision, you know, a decision. I, you know, growing up with, especially when my mom was struggling with drinking a lot, I definitely had to take space, a lot Like I. There was really big chunks of time where I was living in my dad's house or living somewhere else, like in college, where I was not talking to her. And I did it because I mean, it seems like I'm just being a bitch and it seems like I'm just storming off.

Speaker 2: 29:25

But it was nice to hear in this workshop that kids who do that, adult children who stop talking to their parents, are doing it because that's what they think they need to do to stay healthy.

Speaker 2: 29:42

It's often that they will try to say something to their parents in a reasonable way, like asking for boundaries, asking for space, telling them, hey, please don't call me all the time, or please don't get involved in my relationship with so and so right, and then then maybe the parents don't hear that or they kind of were the anxiety about, you know, taking space will creep up and they'll push harder and then the kid will have to take space because it's like I, my efforts haven't worked and that's definitely the way I felt.

Speaker 2: 30:18

I mean, the time of drinking was like really a volatile period, so there was times where I was like actually scared and I actually had reasons to, you know, keep myself safe by staying away. But I think it what it feels like then and it still feels like now, is I am I try my very hardest to ask for things like ask for requests of you know respecting, let's say, my rules, with my kid right of feeding him certain things, or, you know, keeping routine or whatever, or asking for boundaries for myself, and then I feel like she doesn't listen to them or she like takes it in and then the kind of does the opposite later.

Speaker 2: 31:06

And yeah, and I just I get to a point where I feel hopeless and I think maybe it's sometimes. It feels worse now because I can't blame drinking because she's sober I've. I am like I've spent my life dedicated to like learning about relationships and communication and dealing with a loved one mental illness. So I try to use my skills and then they work sometimes and then they really don't work and then it blows up on my face. So I feel so helpless and I'm like there's no way I can, I can ever have like a normal relationship with her or like be able to navigate the space that I need in the context of relating to her.

Speaker 2: 31:54

And kind of like that helicopter feeling and that feeling of guilt really rang true because I feel so responsible for her happiness, a lot Growing up, and now I feel like if I ask for space or sometimes like don't text her right away or don't see her or give her what she wants, she's gonna be upset in like a deeper existential way, right like this is really gonna hurt her, um, and so I feel so, um, gripped by that right like yeah I mean yeah you had a mother who was very dangerous and, can I say, abusive.

Speaker 2: 32:36

Yeah, yeah, okay At times yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:40

And when you grow up in that environment you have to pay so much attention to her moods and her state of mind and how she's doing, and the only way to keep yourself safe is to be super attentive to that and to prioritize it above all else. So it's very difficult to go from that and putting your own hurt and pain on the back burner, because attending to that will just get you more hurt and pain.

Speaker 1: 33:02

To then suddenly have to choose yourself and still have that automatic instinct to attend to her and her emotion and her pain and then suddenly know that you're about to be the cause of it Like what a terrifying thing to have to her and her emotion and her pain and then suddenly know that you're about to be the cause of it, like what a terrifying thing to have to face and a guilt-inducing thing to have to say and and and she intentionally made you feel guilt and shame for, uh, completely innocuous behavior that was interpreted a particular way right, I will say that that would be reading my side, and I think I'm kind of torn about this, but she would call me abusive, because I think that and this is my perception, of course, you would have to get the other side caveats, side caveats.

Speaker 2: 33:57

But I think that for someone like her, and maybe a lot of the moms that we're talking about, these helicopter moms separation, boundaries and individuation can feel so painful that it could feel like a rejection or could feel like being hurt, right, like a kid being like no, you know, I don't want to be around. You can feel abusive, right, could feel like I'm being, I'm being hurt right now and so. But that then that leaves me spending years and years learning about psychology to be like, oh my gosh, when I ask for my needs and I set boundaries or I say no or take time to myself, that's wrong and someone's going to be mad at you for that, right, um, and I live in fear of that, like I really. Um. So from her side, she's like well, I want the closeness.

Speaker 2: 34:47

And it's interesting too that the parents with the kind of the, the parents who tend to be estranged, will have thoughts like well, I did the best I could, you should have seen my childhood. I never got half of the things I gave you, and so I gave you a better childhood that I could ever like. How could you do this to me? Right? And it's important for strange parents to remember that like just because you made their childhood better doesn't mean it negates things that hurt them.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Right.

Speaker 1: 35:26

Yeah, and I think it's important for the child to be able to recognize like my parent was. My parent is severely limited because hers were or his were and you know, maybe this is what their best looks like.

Speaker 1: 35:38

And that doesn't necessarily mean, though, that you make a different decision about contact Um, but, and so I think that's kind of the mistake that the parent makes is like. If you can just understand that the world I gave you is such a vast improvement upon the world I was given and that's hard to do Like that is an accomplishment Then you would forgive me and you wouldn't dare think of leaving me.

Speaker 2: 36:08

Sometimes it could be using guilt trips, right, like, oh fine, I'm a terrible parent. Or, you know, I did the best for you, I gave you this, I paid for this, I supported you in these ways, and for the parent, they feel like they're owed something, right, but kids, or our generation and kids these days, you know, don't believe that there's a something that we owe them. It's like, yeah, I will owe you, you know, general respect if that's due. But it's almost like kind of dealing with two equal closer to equals about is this relationship good for me or not? That's when. That's what motivates me to being close to you or not.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Is there a multicultural aspect of this, with you coming your mother's Chinese, a collectivist culture?

Speaker 2: 36:55

yeah meets your american side definitely, and I and it's really strange because I I I'm closer to my mom than she was with her mom physically, like we're in a different country, and I lived like close to her and my mom mom has also chosen sometimes to in different ways, like take her distance, and that's really quote like strange or wrong in Chinese culture. But there is this expectation of you know, no matter what, you're going to be respectful and you are. You owe your parents a lot, right? You are obligated to make them happy, you're obligated to listen to them, and I grew up in New York City in America, where it's like no, it's I, if someone wronged me, I'm not going to. I don't have any allegiance to that, I don't owe them anything.

Speaker 1: 37:55

Right. So, yeah, I mean it's an interesting like if I think about my kids someday owing me, like well, they didn't get to pick being born. I'm doing that for me. I'm not doing that for them. I'm not like I'm going to have a baby so that that baby can be brought into the world and they'll be so grateful for that, like someday they'll love me. I mean, I sure as shit hope that when I'm old they'll take care of me.

Speaker 2: 38:22

But it's a different sort of attitude to think like I raised you and therefore you now owe me, when it's kind of like but you didn't have to have them in the first place you now owe me, when it's kind of like, but you didn't have to have them in the first place, yeah, but even even so, becoming a mom, I'm like, oh, whoops, like we, it is so much work to be a mom. And now it's actually like I'm like what? What are the benefits of being a mom? Because you, the identity and role often shouldn't necessarily be like this is you sacrifice everything. You give so much you. It's like a one-way street. You pour all this time, energy and resources into this child. The child grows up to um seek happiness and might just just cut you off one day well, that's fucked.

Speaker 1: 39:06

But I mean, if you're a shitty parent, it it's not always the case.

Speaker 2: 39:09

There's not always a shitty parent. Sometimes they just want to, like, find their identity. But, like, even you know, I was in this workshop. I'm, you know, taking time for my mom and even I, a couple minutes ago, wanted to hug and kiss my son and he was just like no, and I was like why not no-transcript anything to do with me which causes only me pain, and like benefits them somehow?

Speaker 1: 39:56

So but I think that's an interesting part of all of this is that the kid is not traditionally the one in power. This is, this is kind of the big power move, this is the trump card that they have in their deck, and so I think for some kids, you know, who grew up feeling powerless, this is actually the only, the first and only way they know how to even get power.

Speaker 2: 40:15

Yeah, that's really the only way I could feel like right now, in this moment, they're really the only way I could feel like I have the space to be myself and to like parent the way I want and to take care of myself and my health, right. Like there's sometimes so much about my relationship with my mom that's about doing things to keep her happy. She probably wouldn't agree. She does contribute a lot to my life. She really, you know, is a great grandmother and that's often the case, a great grandmother to my son, in the case, a great grandmother to my son.

Speaker 2: 40:55

But I feel like there's a lot of not being able to be myself around her and kind of taking that she doesn't listen to what I want or doesn't listen to what I say.

Speaker 2: 41:02

So it kind of feels like I'm not a human. It doesn't feel like I'm being a person to her. It kind of feels like I only tapped into this recently, like I feel like I'm being a person to her. It kind of feels like I only tapped into this recently, like I feel like I'm a supply for something, I fill the void right, like I feel her identity, her feeling connected that she didn't have with her mom, and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 41:25

And the weight of that is too much, because there were times when, literally, like, literally, like I remember, I would be in my room, I had the door closed, I'd be studying for a test, and that's when she would be the most angry. She would come in and just like yell and start to cause a fight then, because you know she, I don't know she's like, your focus was elsewhere, my focus was elsewhere, and so it, it was just like oh, I can't even just be by myself without having to like give part of me to making her happy yeah, or not happy, because it's not like I'm a jester but to make her feel like fulfilled or connected to something something uh-huh.

Speaker 1: 42:18

I mean, I know the um, something that people with bpd say. I would think maybe even more so npd, um, my friend with bpd said this to me recently that she, she can't even feel her identity if she isn't uh, there's not another person in the room. Like she can't tell what she, so she'll start texting me like venting and just constant negative thoughts that are unhelpful, right, but she's like. It's like it's a compulsion to text somebody when she's feeling because she can't. It's like the boundaries of her identity aren't there unless she's in relations and it's interesting.

Speaker 1: 42:53

It's an interesting phenomenon because that is actually how we identify. How we identify ourselves is in relation to others our social creatures and so, and that process has been hugely disrupted in personality disorders and so, without others immediately there, there's no like consistency of the identity. It dissolves and then reconfigures itself and dissolves and reconfigures itself. So I wonder if your mother was like if I don't have something, somebody like mirroring me back to myself, I lose it. I'm just stuck in a cloud of chaos.

Speaker 2: 43:27

If she were listening to this she'd probably be like no, I mean the core of the problem. But I, I, I would. I think it's a. It feels a little bit less like she's a chameleon and it feels kind of like me or or jackson's attention my is the drug of choice. It's like I need this, I need this, I need to feed on it. Yeah, I didn't get it growing up. Give it to me.

Speaker 2: 44:03

And then what's hard is that all the fights and all the things has made me more guarded, right, like with the porcupines of, like, you know, shuffled away, but that makes it worse, right. And so, like, know, shuffled away, but that makes it worse, right. And so, like I'm drawing away, I'm keeping up guards, I don't let her come and help with the cancer stuff as much as I did, and so she's feeling that, feeling the withdrawal and the, the barbs of that. And then, yeah, when I asked for hey, can we postpone this plan for another time, it ended up in an explosion while I was like recovering from surgery. So I just, yeah, I don't know where I was going, that I was getting kind of lost, and well, I mean it just.

Speaker 2: 44:44

you are treated as a tool and as a supply, as you said, of attention, rather than as being appreciated as a supply, as you said, of attention, rather than as being appreciated as a person that you are pretty appreciated and respected and loved, as Kibbe who has needs and wants and interesting things about her, and should be admired for a lot of other things other than what she can provide and it's just, it's it still hooks on me that it's getting more and more common to be like my dad's a narcissist, my mom's a narcissist, right, it's just kind of like naming those things and I definitely have thought those things to myself, you know that and it's like, are they really no-transcript as educated, with the different empathy, um, and perspective taking and like mutual communication language that all of us have, yeah, you know, grown up with. So for, for example, like when my mom is you know very much in my life and tends to talk about herself a lot, I, especially when I'm going through a hard time and I find it really hard to bring the attention back to me, or, like you know, I just kind of feel like I'm an audience member, kind of like you know, and I, yeah, I'm getting like mad thinking about it, but yeah, I just kind of feel like it's all, it's the tensions always like back to her and her feelings. Yeah, that's when I I feel most insulted. I feel like I you don't care about me, I'm just like an object. I have to run away to find myself again and to like be a person.

Speaker 2: 46:54

Find myself again and to like be a person, um, but on the other side, it's like that, my mom's generation, they didn't learn that. They didn't learn how to be like let you know, learn how to be validating, and really you know like ask people open-ended questions and be curious, right, like chatting on the phone at each other is like totally fine as long as you're connected. So yeah, that's the part that really gets me.

Speaker 1: 47:13

It's just such a, it's such a dialectic. You know, like I'm bouncing, I you know I'm so I'm very biased towards your side with your, your mom, but you know like my.

Speaker 1: 47:22

My sister will call my mom a narcissist. I'm just kind of like you gotta be kidding me. Like she has some traits, I guess. Um, but like parents, yeah, they're limited by their generation. What they were given my mom's mother was a fucking nightmare, and so I I do kind of think it's relevant where she came from and and, by contrast, what she's given, and so that it's like, and so that it's like that bothers me too, and like in your case or cases like it, I think what's so hard, you know, I think a best case scenario here is not usually estrangement but some sort of boundary relationship.

Speaker 1: 48:10

And that can be difficult to accomplish sometimes. Because if we could be able to say my mother is limited, there are some things she is incapable of. She will never take responsibility for X, she will never validate my feelings, she will never, um, know how to communicate, uh, respectfully through a conflict. Whatever the case may be, right, you know you we could say, okay, when she communicates like this to me, I will know that this is a her thing, not a me thing. But it's very hard to do that with your mother, your mother or father. We're talking so much about mothers because it's the women in both of our families who are kind of in these dynamics, but or the father.

Speaker 1: 49:03

They shape how you understand yourself and what and they shape how you understand your own lovability, and so when they insult you or when they say something critical, it's just so much more difficult to separate yourself from it, and to just see it as a string of phonemes or whatever. That you can ignore.

Speaker 2: 49:27

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that you can ignore. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If I had anyone else throw criticisms at me, it'd hurt but I'd be like ugh. But when my mom does it, it has this extra deep pain, right. When someone ignores my request for things, I'm annoyed, but when my mom does it, it really, it really really hurts because it it makes me. It's like me as a person was just ignored, right, it has such a identity and existential part to it. So, um, yeah, and it's, I don't know, it's, it's so painful and I just don't always know what the answer is. I feel like the workshop I mean this is kind of getting into tips about what do you do about it, right, and the intervention is everything that I would ever want.

Speaker 2: 50:26

The intervention usually looks like in family therapy is, you know, the parent who's estranged will ask for help from a therapist and they want to reconcile, they want to get back in touch with their kid, have to take accountability, own up to what they've done to hurt the child, express empathy or interest in the kid's perspective and, you know, just kind of like, be open, no-transcript. Don't you know that I've worked so hard? Right, like, how could you do this to me? Don't you know that I've worked so hard to be like, how could you know they use guilt or they use criticism, or they try to defend themselves or over explain like, yeah, I might have not been there for you, but it's because I had my own stuff going on and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 51:45

Like coming back and getting argumentative about the feelings that came up while being cut off as a parent is not going to work. You have to do the opposite of you. Know, like I recognize that there were things that I did to hurt you. I really want to talk to you about that and understand that better. And I, you know, I don't think I was a bad parent or I'm a bad person, but there are definitely things that definitely mistakes I made. Yeah, that that's like the first major step to reconciliation the thoughts floating around in my head.

Speaker 1: 52:26

one is like I bet there are so many parents who are incapable of that entire package. The other thought is that is definitely what is needed and I'd be so pissed if I were the parent and like I had to own up to a bunch of shit that I don't think is deserved.

Speaker 2: 52:46

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, I wondered that no-transcript. But also be like I didn't mean to you know, like what, I wasn't that bad of a person, um, that that that's just so hard to do. And I liked how dr coleman phrased it, where he was like, yeah, there might be a difference between what you say to the kid that you're trying to, a person that you're trying to reconcile with, and the things that you think in your head. It's like if you march in and blame all the people that you think is the reason why you lashed out or did this or whatever, then you're not going to get anywhere.

Speaker 2: 53:46

But you could have all that. You think whatever you want. But you could have all that. You think whatever you want. You could think that you are completely blameless and you're the perfect parent, and the kids being a little snot for running away. But if you want to reconcile, you have to genuinely go. Yeah, these are, these are things that really hurt you and I'm sorry about that. And not, and not the well, I'm sorry this made you feel this way.

Speaker 2: 54:13

Well, I'm sorry you were. You felt hurt by the things I did, but I did my best and I'm, you know. At least that counts for something, right? That's like. That's a recipe for like subtly blaming the other person for misperceiving their intentions.

Speaker 1: 54:31

So don't do that. I think it's like when you're resolving well, maybe not any conflict, but you can't go into any kind of conflict situation and just say sorry, you were mad, or I didn't do anything wrong, or okay, the only thing I did wrong, like I only did that because so and so was happening. I would hope in these reconciliations that there is some room to hear context though, and I think you can communicate context in a skillful way. So it might be hey, I recognize that I did it, that I made mistakes when I was raising you, and that here some of them are X, y, z and I'm sorry for the harm that did.

Speaker 1: 55:24

I'm not trying to excuse it, but I do want you to understand that when that happened trying to excuse it, but I do want you to understand that when that happened, let's say, I'm my mother. Now I was 25 when I had you, I was married to, uh, a borderline alcoholic Actually I would say borderline personality disorder, alcoholic and I was just a kid and I was really working with limited resources. And all of that is to say that I didn't do these things because I didn't care about you. I did them because I didn't, I didn't know how to do better and I would like to now, or something like that, you know.

Speaker 2: 56:12

Yeah, yeah, I mean. There's definitely a place for that. I think that would definitely be my instinct too. However, when you're intervening in an estrangement context, it almost seems like you want to. The is still the kid. The kid can walk away, right I?

Speaker 2: 56:36

know, you explaining, you explaining, well, I hurt you because I was just 25, you know, like, the kid probably knows that, right, and it still hurts, right. So I think, from what I understand, the first outreach whether you know, in Dr Coleman's practice is writing an amends letter. Right, they write a letter. That's just like owning up to the ways they hurt the child and opening the conversation for reconciliation. Very little explanation, or like, here's my side, right, like, because, yeah, you're.

Speaker 2: 57:12

The point is to focus on communicating to that estranged person. Like I am here to listen, I'm ready to work on this with you and then maybe later, when there's more conversation, there could be discussion about like why I was a quote-unquote, shitty parent, but, um, yeah, so it's just interesting to think about. Like, when you have, when, when there's contact cut off, and that the person who's cut off reaches out, the first interaction should be really more focused on the, just the apology and the owning up to things and not groveling, right, there's fine balance. Like, oh, like, oh, I'm fine, I'm the worst parent and I'm just, you know, just useless. You know that pulls for reassurance.

Speaker 2: 58:00

Exactly, which is like you know genuine like yeah, I did those things, I made a mistake and it really hurt you and I'm really eager to like work on this with you, right.

Speaker 2: 58:13

I am just ping-ponging back and forth between a scenario like yours, where I feel like an apology is really owed, and a scenario like my mom and sister, where I feel like my sister blaming my mom for everything is more about her excusing herself and gaining power, and so I'm like I'm just I'm struggling because I'm at, I'm at both poles yeah but yeah, I mean yeah, yeah I mean if you, if you're apologizing like if if there was abuse or something like, yeah, I mean just delivering apology, an apology with no excuses, would be very powerful yeah, and also you're talking about slightly different things, where this is mine, mine is the case where there's space being taken right, like there's people you know separating and, um, what you're describing is a mother-daughter dynamic where one is blaming the other right. Where, like you're, it sounds like they're locked into like a blaming dynamic versus like one they're cutting off contact, right or yeah, she'll repeatedly threaten to take space.

Speaker 1: 59:27

It's just stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 59:28

Okay, okay, yeah, and it's just stuff like that, but okay okay, yeah, and it's unclear like how long the space she's talking about and I don't know. It's just so, it's just so chronic that I guess I see in her the kind of archetypal situation of I'm going to cut off my parent or in some way like blame my parent for all of my problems, and that being kind of the parent is the victim situation versus I'm going to cut off my parent because they are actively harming my mental health, in which case the child is the victim. And then I've also seen, like her kids, her position with her kids situation where it's like that was a divorce and they were alienated from her because her ex husband actively poisoned them against her, and she has responsibility in that as well, and so I'm just like I've got these like three scenarios bouncing around in my head and three different points of blame.

Speaker 2: 1:00:30

Yeah, I mean, now that we're talking about this web of estrangement and alienation, a lot of it feels kind of like power dynamics, right, it's like being close to you and being close to you is really hard, like with the porcupines, because everything you say hurts, every dismissal or whatever comment hurts to the core and it hurts so much to be close to you that let's get power by drawing away, right, right, and so like your sister has lost power because her kids are not talking to her and she's gaining power by like blaming your mom for things, right, so it's just kind of like finding, finding that like individuation, that perfect mid ground of like the space. But also the closeness is tough. And yeah, I mean I asked, I asked the Dr Coleman, like what, what, what do you do if you're the kid and really the adult child and considering estrangement and I think, but all the things that you were saying, it's like it sounds often sometimes cutting someone off, cutting a parent off, is good for your mental health, like that's sometimes, especially in abusive dynamics, it makes sense to not, it might be so dangerous and might be so threatening for you to have your parent, you know, trigger these feelings all the time. That maybe makes sense, and even more complicated, like a situation like mine, when you start to marry and have kids and then the grandparents want a relationship with the grandkids. But then that reopens up a lot more right for me. Right then I have, I'm way more vulnerable now. Um, so it's like, yeah, but From the adult child perspective, I think one thing to think about the tip is think about what the impact of this will be.

Speaker 2: 1:02:39

It's one thing if you're saying I'm never going to speak to you again and that's like a threat to punish that person, but if this is like you're really considering this for your own good right, for the long term benefit and your well being, then think about how this will affect the bigger picture. How would that separation affect your family? How will that affect your kids? You know, between siblings, are cousins not going to be able to hang out right? Is it going to be awkward, you know? Is it going to impact your kids to not have a relationship with their grandparents? Yeah, so I think just like thinking through what this means and sometimes the best way is to say hey, mom or dad. I think I'm going to need to take some space for two months, like a really particular amount of time. I love you. You're not a bad person. I really just need this time for myself to get back to myself and find my own identity.

Speaker 1: 1:03:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:46

So I like the way, that's great. I I'm not as big of a person to say I think I would just, you know, send a barrage of texts saying what I really feel and then like, fine, I've had enough, I can't do it anymore. You know, like you'll never see how much you hurt me. Stay away Like I did it the bad way. But yeah, if you are considering taking space and, you know, becoming estranged, then say it in a respectful way, say it up front and do it for your own mental health, thinking about the long term consequences.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

Yeah, so I derailed as we were talking about okay now reconciliation. So the parent should write an amends letter just taking responsibility and acknowledging and validating the hurt. Yeah, what then? What happens then?

Speaker 2: 1:04:35

Yeah, and that's the first step sending a men's letter, kind of like the, a model of, you know, really just making amends and apologizing for how you hurt people and then, you know, be open to the response.

Speaker 2: 1:04:51

If they don't respond, follow up in like a month or two, um, and then, if possible, um, what dr coleman was talking about is having you know, like a family therapist or a uh, the parents therapist, reaching out on their behalf and be like, I just want to understand a little bit more about your side so I know how to, like, help your mom or dad to grow right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:19

Um, you, no one can force people to reconcile. So if someone, really, if the child like really can't um forgive, I we keep talking about parent and child, but this, this could also be any any family dynamic but if the other person is just really unwilling to forgive, or they just get so dysregulated just in the presence of the other person, there's got to be more time. It's, it's going to take some time and maybe the person who's estranged, like the parent, needs to do some work on their own. They need to learn how to express empathy, express care in a different way, work on the behaviors that were that really hurt the kid and really do that work on their own and then, you know, demonstrate that to the kid.

Speaker 2: 1:06:10

Yeah and it might take time to heal.

Speaker 1: 1:06:13

I'm just, I'm just envisioning so many situations where the parents can't do this, where they just don't have it in them, and I guess that would be a case for continued non-contact. Um, I wonder, like I had a patient who had way, in my opinion, too much contact with her parent, who had abused her her whole life and caused a lot of trauma. But you know, she had this conflicting value. She's like I understand that my mom was limited. I understand that the way she grew up was a particular way and it's against my values to turn against her and I imagine that's a huge values conflict for a lot of people in these situations. But what she and I had to work on was how do we not be estranged but be very boundaried and how do we stop expecting her parent to be the source of her that self-love and validation basically basically and I think that is such a hard choice when you say I either have to go no contact with my parent or I have to completely change my expectations around what I can get from my parent.

Speaker 2: 1:07:29

That's it when you said that just now and also when you said it earlier in this conversation. It there's a I feel a pang of sadness when you say that, because there is that part of me that wanted a certain parent that she wasn't. And to accept her limitations is to accept that she is that flawed of a person which is like obvious, like obvious, but it just it just makes me sad because I'm like, oh, when I accept all of her flaws, I have to expect so little and just see her as not a potential like mother figure and see something else. Um, sometimes it feels like another child and that sucks. I think there's a part of me that always hopes that things will change. And you know, to her credit, she quit alcohol. You know to grow, she grew a lot right, like more than most people can. So even that gives me more hope that I could finally get what I needed. And no, I need to like accept that I might not ever get that. That's tough.

Speaker 1: 1:08:44

Yeah, that's a horrible thing to accept. It's just the most raw deal. You know, like, who we get I don't just mean you, I just mean, like for some people, who they get parents and who they don't get as parents. Rather, I should say it is hard to watch other people walk around with this. You know unconditional love supplied to them by their parents, the secure attachments applied to them, and have to accept like, wow, I'm never going to have something that feels like such a fundamental human right, like a birthright, and the thing that we know is the biggest factor in future success in life. I mean, that's a horrible thing to accept and I can understand why. It would feel better to say I'm going to go no contact so that I can push off accepting this, so I never have to accept it, maybe, but I don't have to be punished by it continually either.

Speaker 2: 1:09:43

Yeah, it feels like acceptance means giving up hope. That's rough.

Speaker 1: 1:09:49

Yeah. So I guess the only thing I'll say on that also is like sometimes it is not about can my parent change. Sometimes it's about what is my value around who I am in my family and about what I do, so I mean with my patient she chose. My mom's never going to change, but it's my value. What I value is forgiving and maintaining contact with the person who raised me. So, as punishing as it is, I'm going to keep going, but I'm going to limit my expectations and I'm going to limit contact. So that is a way to go.

Speaker 2: 1:10:22

Yeah, but yeah, and being really clear about what those limitations are, I think that you could run into the mistake of being like, okay, we'll just hang out a little bit, I'll talk to her a little bit, and what that means is unclear. So if it's like once a week we'll go to dinner or we'll have one phone call, whatever, like just keeping keeping the boundaries consistent, um and very clear, right, yeah, good, clear with both people, with clear with yourself and clear with your parents yeah we have a.

Speaker 2: 1:10:58

We have a settery, yeah, we have a boundary setting episode so if anyone is curious, you can listen to that one forgot what season is, but agreed.

Speaker 1: 1:11:07

Well, little helpers. Um, if you don't want to be estranged from us, please leave. Leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Leave us a little comment. Give us some love. We love. Reading them Makes us feel good inside and we'll see you in two weeks.

Speaker 1: 1:11:28

By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified health care provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 9-1-1. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.