Jacqueline: 0:15

Hello Little Helpers. Today's episode is going to be processing our feelings about the election. It's kind of an obvious thing to talk about after what happened. I mean, I've talked to a lot of people online, a lot of my own friends. I've been processing my own feelings and you know we often talk about helping our friends on this show and I think that's totally relevant to this episode. But it's also how can we not fall into the trap of just creating enemies, I guess? Like how do we not just get rid of all of our friends when they didn't vote the same way we did in what feels like, for both sides, a very high stake election? Kip, I'll turn it over to you for now to talk a little bit about how Kula Mind could help.

Kibby: 1:09

Yeah, we've been teasing this and we've gotten a lot of people reaching out and asking for more support around loving someone with mental illness. It's something that we're huge about and we really want to come together and provide that kind of support in all different ways. So with Kula Mind, we are building both a community and a platform for getting individual support. That's coming out really soon, but if you want to get on the list, go to K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom KulaMindcom. You see buttons that says like get started. Just click on that and you sign up with me as a consultation call just to understand what you need and what can be helpful and we'll figure it out from there.

Jacqueline: 1:51

Amazing, I mean. I know that I felt really numbed out after the election. I had this like lodged anger, slash, disgust and sadness and finally got it out. The other night I got I drank enough to get it out.

Jacqueline: 2:09

I wound up like sobbing for an hour about trump being a rapist and um, it was actually kind of funny because jason and I were having like a good night with our friend marvin and jason was like we got in an uber and I was just sobbing the entire time and it was like a 45 minute Uber ride and the guy didn't even put music on, it was just a totally silent Uber ride. And then we like got home and I was like apparently, you know, I was like getting changed. I'm talking all about how Trump's a rapist, et cetera, et cetera. And I see Jason like look at my boobs and I'm like you can't even talk to me without looking at my tits, that's not funny that.

Jacqueline: 2:54

I passed out and I was fine the next day. Cool, great.

Kibby: 2:57

So I finally, as a Democrat, but I also do want to use this opportunity to do what you and I have always talked about, which is let's not demonize any particular side. Like we're really big into trying to take the perspective of someone else and try to understand the compassion for the other side that we're not, whether it's someone that we love, mental illness, someone with a personality disorder traits or different sides of this political atmosphere, because I think the, for me, my, my view is view is what scares me is the polarization, right. It scares me that we all hate each other and refuse to see each other's side. Instead, I'm like, okay, fine, let me learn about the other side. So I mean even us doing this right now.

Kibby: 4:02

This is like our platform, our podcast, and yet I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing, whether it's like in support of Trump supporters or in support of democratic ideals, right, like I'm like I'm nervous and I think that's the enemy. I don't think that. I think being learning how to be open and tolerating different perspectives is what we need. So I think, like I'm trying to take a like a balanced perspective and see how much we can learn from both sides.

Jacqueline: 4:29

I agree, I mean, I'm on board with that, but at the same time, I think that, like, if any Trump supporters are listening, they have to understand that people who are against him it's not just because of different policy opinions, it's not, you know, just because, like Trump has said a few clumsy things, it's because there's actually real fear and betrayal in having him as the president. And I think you know, I've spent the last week talking to a lot of Trump supporters on Instagram, because first I pissed them off, tried to explain my perspective and and also try to understand their perspective and just talk about like look, if you know, if we want unity, then you have to just not like write off the liberal response as whiny or entitled, but to actually understand that there is that there's a lot of fear and like hurt, like betrayal and hurt from this election. And you know and I, and so I talked to a lot of Trump supporters and I think I can at least try to steel man what they told me as the argument.

Kibby: 5:39

And actually, before we jump into that conversation, which I'm fascinated to hear about, I actually, when you, when you just said that you were you, I didn't realize like how, um, emotionally this hit you in that way, like the crying in the cab, um, because for you actually, like you have a history of being really like um, able to, um, dispassionately and objectively, like see the other side and even when, even when we come to like power dynamics or narcissists or like you, you tend to be like, okay, well, I see this side and you know, like it, like your, your emotional response to this kind of reminds me of some of what we talked about in other podcast episodes of like you realizing how people have taken advantage of you, or you know, like, yeah, there's, there's some, there's some emotion revolution I've seen in you and I wanted to ask you about that, if this is hitting on something different. Like this is just a different response from you that I've heard before, so it was different response that I've than I've had before.

Jacqueline: 6:48

I didn't cry after the 2016 election. I do think that I have had a lowered patience for certain things, a lower tolerance for certain things, namely entitlement, entitlement abuse, narcissism. You know, I used to be so fascinated by NPD that I wanted to treat it. I really don't anymore. Um, I think that I've had a series of realizations that I've allowed people to use me a little bit too much and that's come from a partially good place of like. I often don't feel helpful or competent and so, in ways that I can be, then I like to give that to people.

Jacqueline: 7:31

But I think I've also realized with some people in my life that that's not really returned or appreciated, and it doesn't always have to be, but I think at a fundamental level, I still want to be seen as like a person with feelings and to just be, to be asked for things with appreciation instead of just anyways. I think a lot of this had to do with my last relationship and realizing that if I wanted to save myself from future relationships of that ilk, that I might have to change a few things, and I also think it has to do with my current relationship of being in a really great relationship where Jason has turned on its head a lot of the beliefs I had, or maybe the expectations I've had for men, and now I have much higher expectations for men because I've seen that they can be met. And so I think with Trump and also in my last relationship I would say, I experienced some level of like sexual abuse um at the very least, just like extreme sexual entitlement.

Jacqueline: 8:39

Yeah and um, I think for a very long time in my life I was just like you know what, if I can get over something, I'm going to get over it, because what's the alternative? Um, and I don't know, I wonder if a little bit of that has gotten lodged in me. Um, I think with Trump I was actually able to accept that a large number of people would vote for him, even given the sexual assault allegations. But it was the fact that he won the popular vote that actually a majority of the country, or at least of the voting population, was willing to elect a rapist to the White House. And I'll, I'll, I'll talk about that from a trump supporter perspective in a minute because I don't think that's how they would put it right.

Jacqueline: 9:34

So I don't want to. I don't want to just like create these accusations, but from my from my perspective sitting here, it's like 27 women came out. No, that was not 27 rapes. Some of it was just assault, but there were multiple rapes that were reported.

Jacqueline: 9:51

One was from a child, someone who was 12 or 14. And one that was substantiated, you know, and he, he lost a civil suit, you know, and he lost a civil suit. And so for me, especially as a therapist, I can't just be like 27 different women relying, especially one that won a civil suit against him. Mm-hmm, and also I've. I spent my 20s with a lot of men like him, including my brother-in-law, my former brother-in-law, who's a trump supporter. You know, like I, my sister married that man when I was 16, but they've been together when I was 13 and I really grew up with this form of masculinity that I admired and thought funny of, like, very callous, crass, disrespectful. Um, powerful, powerful, funny, wealthy. I mean eric was. There are so many erics in my past life so you guys are getting massively confused, but this is yet another one. That eric was larger than life, very, very funny. Um, he paid attention to me in ways that I think now I don't think he had any kind of like sexual or romantic interest in me, but it, but we're just disrespectful to my sister, like we would stay up until 3 am chatting and drinking when I was like um

Jacqueline: 11:22

and I, I liked that for me, that kind of like barstool you know, that's actually a party named like a barstool republican that kind of barstool humor and um, and I think I just accepted some poor treatment from men because I was like, oh yeah, like this is what masculinity is. And when I look at trump, I see somebody who embodies all of that, but so much worse. And when, when people don't believe that he assaulted those women, I'm kind of like, okay, but but look at him at least seem like someone who would do that and also have all of the power. Uh, you know, that would sort of suggest that he would be able to do that easily, even even if there wasn't like a pretty believable testimony from Eugene Carroll. Um, haven't we seen him use his mouth to say disrespectful and dehumanizing things against many different people? What like, why do we accept this?

Jacqueline: 12:35

And for a long time again in my 20s I just accepted shitty male behavior, like I accepted somebody going on a date with me, coming back and like basically, basically, like forcibly hooking up with me, when I was like fighting them off, yeah, and then I asked him for a second date because I was like it's just boys being boys, just men, you know, yeah. And so, yeah, I think I'm over that now. I'm just like I'm. Some anger is coming out about that now. Coming out about that now. And it's fucking sad that people, a lot of people, look at him and are just like, yeah, you know he's joking. Yeah, they're like they're lying, they're being dramatic. You know like, let's elect this guy anyway.

Kibby: 13:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's the interesting question, I mean, like ever since 2016,. When he said you just got to grab him by the pussy, right Like, just as soon as he said that, I was like, oh, he's not going to win, right Like, wow, this is evidence that he, you know, has a character, and we really cared about character in our, in a specific type of character in our president and our leaders. Right like, we railed against bill clinton for you know other you know that kind of behavior too. So it's just like, ah, okay, america's american want like a good christian, like family man, who doesn't do that. So he's gone. But then then we get more and more and more and more and more.

Kibby: 14:02

And there's this really interesting study that will link to the site, but it's called Responses to Belief-Conflicting Information Justification of Support for Donald Trump.

Kibby: 14:13

And these researchers did a series of studies where they ask like, how can you support him given the allegations? And blah, blah, blah, and it was over three different studies at different time periods, and it's interesting that there's all different ways that people kind of justify it. People justify it like, oh, I don't actually believe he did that, or other politicians do the similar things, or or they don't even care that he does right there. So there's a variety of like devaluing the importance of or the impact of, you know, the allegations. But it's interesting over the course of the three studies, like over time, people are are less likely to say to use the excuse or the reasons um, other people do the thing and also over the course of the three studies, they are more likely to not believe in the allegations. So as time went on, as more results of the court case and stuff like that, they're more likely to dig into the belief that these aren't real.

Jacqueline: 15:23

And it's I found talking to people yeah it's interesting.

Kibby: 15:25

It's like this dis you know we call it's based on this theory of cognitive dissonance, where it's. It's kind of like, if you really believe in something, you will start to um, you know, devalue um evidence against it. You start to get more entrenched in your beliefs, right, and so, for example, if they believe, if they're a believer in Trump, and the more and more evidence comes out, they're more likely to not believe and not believe it. So they're, they get polarized more into their beliefs than they were probably in them even in the beginning, which is like counterintuitive. But it's just, that's just fascinating to me. It's just, it's what have you heard in terms of like not believing the allegations?

Jacqueline: 16:14

I'm going to try to steal the argument for Trump because I think it's got multiple pieces that come together. So I basically put what I just said in this podcast on my Instagram. The other day. You know about sexual assault and you know so a follower of mine had said, like you know, he won the popular vote power over half the country who are women. You know they wouldn't want to do that, we wouldn't want to subjugate women that way, and that's not true. That's what I figured out. It's like that's the reality is just not true. So that's the Republicans that talked to me then would respond, mostly with I don't believe he did it, however. So the reasoning I think this seems to all go back to some really deep distrust towards what seems the establishment and, for whatever reason, democrats alone seem to be responsible for the quote unquote establishment.

Kibby: 17:26

Right right.

Jacqueline: 17:29

And a lot of this, I believe, is due to two factors One is that Trump sowed distrust in the media, and the other is that the media sowed distrust in the media, distrust in the media through like worsening and worsening bias that trump was able to pick on and blame on the democratic-led media, which is interesting because fox news, I believe, is what the majority of americans watch. It's republican hell and the bias in fox news is just astounding you know.

Jacqueline: 18:00

So I I don't entirely know how this has become an only Democrat problem, but whatever, maybe they wouldn't even say that. Maybe they would say all big media is biased, it's a problem and you can't believe it. Trump won is that he actually didn't use the establishment media. You know he wasn't big into debates, which you know Democrats have an explanation of, republicans have a different explanation of. He instead went on Joe Rogan. He went on like multiple huge YouTube podcasts where there is a very large audience of men and where they are a long form. Obviously we're a fan of the podcast medium and you are able to get to know them in a way that is unscripted.

Jacqueline: 19:00

So basically, the idea is like the establishment media is inherently untrustworthy. And then also there were different kind of conspiracies that people were able to point to, like Hunter Biden's laptop, or there were, like many Democratic officials joined together to lie about this. So why is it out of the realm of possibility that these 27 women would be hired by democratic establishment to lie about Trump? Now I will say one of these accusations came out before he ever ran for president. Okay, so I'm not sure how that fits, but regardless, the point is they see from what they've told me, they see all of these accusations against Trump as the Democrats being scared and using corrupt means to get him out of power and to put him in prison, and so every new allegation that comes up gets put through that same machine of. I inherently can't trust this, and all the Democrats are doing is making me further distrust them and any allegations they make. Yeah, yeah, so. So that's, that's one piece we can talk about, and then there's other stuff I can try to yeah, no.

Kibby: 20:23

I, I think that what you're like, we know Trump in the public's mind, but I, like I already have my view of him, but this really made me turn to really try to understand the Trump support and be like, ok, I'm going to turn away from this guy and turn to the people who are, because there's something about this country that is like bubbling that, that that he, he gives a voice to, and I feel like he, he does something and represent something for people that is important, so important that people are willing to just not even cancel him, right, because of this. So there's something about like, what is that? And I read this really good article in Atlantic that that was talking about what you were saying, which is the Trump support movement is really energizing. There's a ton of social media like influencers now, like you know, the Jordan Peterson, like there's all these different like grassroots, if you will like, for the people um, entertainers and speakers, and it's just and it's like it's uniquely activating, right, there's we've talked on this podcast so much about the problem with people avoiding, right, Like kids don't want to go to school, you know, like I bet a lot of kids didn't vote, which is a big issue, right. So like there's a lot about the democratic culture. That's about censorship and about being in restraint and using ethics and curbing bad behavior. Right, it's a lot of like even their platform of Kamala being like can you believe this guy I'm running against? What a jerk right.

Kibby: 22:15

Like there's a lot of like elitist intellectual, like I'm an establishment, and we are like jerk right. Like there's a lot of like like elitist intellectual, like I'm an establishment, and we are like above right and like I'm I'm at fault. Like, as soon as I hear anything about Trump, my automatic thought is they're dumb. And then I'm like what, where is that coming from? Like that, what am I basing that on? You know, like that's, that's. It's just like it's become a culture of condescension, which is so unappealing, and so I even.

Kibby: 22:42

I find that off-putting right, but in the Trump's point it's like let's change, let's do something Right, even if it's like led by someone who's like nuts, right, like it's just like it's more activating. And I do hear more of the youth who are like jazzed up to do something, are like right leaning. So I think that we've kind of forgotten to. I mean, that was something that, like Obama, did so well. It was like Garner, like movement and like a feeling of if I elect this guy, things are going to change. I don't know if I like him, I don't know what he's like in his personal life, but I want something different and I want to. I'm angry. I'm angry that, like COVID, and all this stuff happened.

Jacqueline: 23:25

You know, this is an exciting topic because I think it, I think it connects well to other things we've talked about on this podcast. So I think the first thing is what's been going on with men and boys, you know? I mean we had Jared Glenn on and we talked about economic and social and cultural shifts and I think that the Democrats have uniquely failed in all of these ways. So the first, the economic shift, is losing a ton of, you know, manufacturing or blue collar jobs overseas and that vacuum basically being filled with the opium crisis. So in West Virginia, which is a hot seat of the opium opium crisis and where I'm from, the coal industry has largely collapsed. Those people don't have any other skills. What are they going to do? There's nowhere to go, there are no jobs. Um, there's an extremely high literacy rate in West Virginia, extremely highiteracy rate in west virginia, extremely high like bad, poor, wow, extremely poor health outcomes. And so you have the democrats, who are uh well, a ignoring the problem and then b disparaging men at any chance they get, and you have trump, who's an old school masculine figure who pays attention and says we're going to bring these jobs back. So I understand why a large swath of the population is willing to vote just on that alone.

Jacqueline: 24:50

I think culturally the Democrats were just straight up buckets for like eight straight years and I hate them. No-transcript supporter. Before um, before I was a Hillary Clinton supporter. The only reason I really liked Hillary Clinton was because I hated Trump. So I just want to say, like it's not that I see the policies between the two of them and think that the Democrats are clearly the winners, that they've clearly got their fingers on the pulse.

Jacqueline: 25:52

Like I have a long history of disagreeing with Democrats. I happen to be extremely pro-choice. I have a long history of disagreeing with with Democrats. I happen to be extremely pro-choice, and so when a social issue like that becomes threatened, then I'm likely to switch over to the Democrat because I'm used to hating both sides basically and also a little bit liking both sides. So I understand from a policy perspective why somebody would vote for Trump or just the Republican party generally, like that doesn't offend me at all. And I also understand why people would vote for Trump or just the Republican Party generally, like that doesn't offend me at all. And I also understand why people would deeply hate Democrats because the because liberal individuals were just dicks for so long. I mean the condescension you're talking about. It was like it was vicious condescension. It was like I'm going to feel powerful today by putting you down.

Kibby: 26:40

I mean, you felt that strongly right, I despised them.

Jacqueline: 26:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Despised them. So like 0% of me is surprised when people want to pummel them and like beat them up Like they're the whiny little goody two-shoes on the schoolyard. You know, like I totally get that impulse because I wanted to too. My thing is that I don't see the actual politicians as being the arbiters of that. I just see that as more like social, like buckheads on social media being vicious, but whatever, it's all in the same soup. That's the base. Like I could understand wanting to punish the base.

Jacqueline: 27:19

I had a patient who I saw on wednesday and I was like you know, how are you feeling post-election, whatever, and he's like. He's like I feel great. He's like I, you know I was gonna feel great either way. If trump lost, I was gonna get to see redneck tears and if kamala lost I. Now I get to see liberal tears. That's great and it's like that. You know what I kind of. I mean I, you know I'm some of the liberal tears you're talking about, but I also get it because they've been so annoying and dehumanizing, particularly towards masculinity and my costa our friend showed he talked to me about I.

Jacqueline: 27:56

I think it was like Kamala Harris's campaign website and it had a section that was like who our campaign is for and it was like it was like black people, asian people, lgbtq plus, women um, every, every, every demographic you can imagine, except one, guess what one white males. Not even white males, just men. Men were not listed. How could you leave out 50 fucking percent of the entire population when you say who your campaign is for?

Kibby: 28:27

Yeah, it's also like, if you picture from like the Democrat I mean we're talking about actually right now cultural, like the cultural divide, when you imagine what a Democrat, like the cultural divide, when you imagine what a Democrat, what a culture would say is a man and shows masculinity, is someone who is like like so, like so self-monitoring for saying bad things, right, like someone who is like so, almost like pre-ashamed, like self-deprecating, careful, careful to say the right thing, lots of trigger warnings, lots of disclaimers, right, it's someone who's like censoring himself really well. And on the other side, is someone who's charged up and ready to fight. Right, which one's going to be more appealing and which one you know like-?

Jacqueline: 29:17

I think the other thing, the other misstep is you know you can have a campaign that disparages women because women are used to it we haven't had power ever but you can't take a population that has been in power since the beginning of humanity and then all of a sudden take it away and not expect them to be like what.

Kibby: 29:38

Yeah, there was another interesting article that talked about, like, what is the sentiment behind the Trump support? And one of them was feeling disrespected. Right, so it's like men, white men or, like you know, different parts of the country feel disrespected, feel like people think that they're dumb or they shouldn't have as much power, like we should lift up these other groups, you know, and take away their power. Right, and which is understandable. Right, it's understandable that you'd want to fight against that. The interesting thing that that article talked about was like, if you look at it objectively, the stats, objectively, that group like, let's say, the white males, young white males they're not disrespected. They still, of course, have most money, have the most power, have the most influence, like they have the most mainstream still, and yet they, yes, but they feel more disrespected.

Kibby: 30:35

So it's kind of like feeding on it's feeding on the feeling that everyone wants to be seen. Now, right, Like, think about all of these different movements. Black Lives Matter Me Too. Everyone's like look at me, look at the pain that I've been struggling with silently. But when you have this group that is still in power and feeling that that's a recipe for, like them, fighting harder, right, like if you have your boss upset that he's not, doesn't have enough power, he's gonna get more power right, yeah, yeah, well, I mean I, I think there's, I mean there's many kinds of men, but like I'm just gonna bucket them into two camps.

Jacqueline: 31:12

One is the men who are told that they have all the power but actually don't, because their industry has been erased and they're fucking poor and they can't get a woman. And, um, you know they're. They're told over and over again that they have got all this privilege and actually they don't. So they're like how dare you say this to me? And then there's the men who do have the power, but the thing is is that they feel entitled to it because they've always been entitled to it. So suddenly you take it away and it's like wait a minute, I'm entitled to that versus other groups are like yeah, I was never entitled to that, clearly not sure why, but I'm used to it, I guess.

Jacqueline: 31:42

So this is no surprise. I mean, when I was just sitting there thinking like I guess, I was like I can't believe how disappointed I am in finding out that we live in a reality where a man can rape women and people just fundamentally are like, like, yeah, that sucks, but you know, the grocery prices are high. It's like that was my quote-unquote. I hate this fucking word, but privileged realization. As a white woman like you know, if you're any kind of minority, you already know that's the case and you've lived under that forever yeah and so it's just yet one more piece of confirmatory evidence.

Jacqueline: 32:21

But yeah, I mean, I think I think Donald Trump coming out and basically being like I'm a man, I don't give a fuck what you think about me, I'm not going to watch what I say, you know, I'm going to say whatever I want. It's going to be funny, it's going to be insulting, but whatever, like, at least I'm not coming out and saying, want, it's going to be funny, it's going to be insulting, but whatever, like, at least I'm not coming out and saying like men, you're toxic and you know you abuse people all the time and uh, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, like, like I love Dave Chappelle. You know, if Dave Chappelle were running for president, no, I would not vote for him because he has no qualifications, but I still enjoy that kind of personality right, right, right, the freedom of speech.

Jacqueline: 33:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah um, yeah, so yeah, I think I think the democratic party disowning men was a is a huge issue. Now I I think that liberal men would have a different take. Like they didn't disown men. They had different expectations of what men could live up to.

Kibby: 33:21

Yeah, yeah, but I think. I think it's like the importance of showing what that looks like. I think that we have so, um, the liberal movement is so much about what you shouldn't do, right? The?

Kibby: 33:35

things that the words that you shouldn't say, the ways to conduct yourself, shouldn't? There's? There's very little should. Yes, right, there's like I know that I should be scared of saying certain words, but I and there I mean given the better words, but it's out of fear. So it's like a very fear and like avoiding shame and rejection kind of like mode, and that's really hard to, that's really hard to stomach. But something that does scare me a lot and I'll, I'll credit my friend Anna. She's a, she's a lawyer, she's in Stockholm working at the European banking authority. She's she was, she's German and she's like I'm really worried about this. This is like actually terrifying to watch what's happening in the us, and I think she didn't say this, but I'm thinking, wow, things that I've learned about, like dictators rise is really paralleling this, where, after world war one, germans were kind of butthurt that they lost world war one and they were not doing well, um, they're still like they were the treaty of versailles also.

Jacqueline: 34:38

It, uh, it pillaged germany. I mean, they had to pay a lot, right like they were, the germans were really hurting um.

Kibby: 34:45

But then hitler was like hey guys, hey germans, you're hurting, it's the jews fault and they were like yeah, it is and so kind of like garnering this.

Kibby: 34:55

I'm disrespected and I want to get my power back. It's a really fiery and it's a really it's a big. It's a big like seed for dictatorship, which is scary, and my friend Anna was like the hope. What we've learned in history is like independent media and having like open discourse and not letting one voice dominate. The public voice is really important. So conversations like that, I'm like, oh God, where are we going? It's so scary, and not because of Trump, not because of like, it's just because of this, like the hatred we have for each other, which is scaring me, like the hatred to the point where we're. So I just started watching again like the movie Civil War, if you haven't seen it.

Jacqueline: 35:44

it's so good I've seen it yeah.

Kibby: 35:45

But it's dystopian world where America has broken out into civil war, and I'm just like this is not even looking too much like fantasy. This is like we're at arms with each other, and that's the scary part. That's the part that's going to be really beneficial to our enemies globally, right, like the fact that we're breaking apart so deeply is the part that scares me.

Kibby: 36:10

And that's why I wanted to like look at the other side and like be like, hey, let's learn from the Trump support Because, like, I prefer that than like tearing, tearing us apart. You know, I agree.

Jacqueline: 36:22

I agree. I mean, I think look like I think some other just basic reasons why people voted for Trump is that under Trump there were no wars and apparently there's been a real fear that we're going to be leading into World War Three, given the war with Ukraine, you know, between Israel and Hamas, and you know that is one example of when I think it's actually okay to vote for a vile human being. I think he's vile. I know some of you don't. You know, like, if you really think that we are headed into an apocalyptic situation, then, yeah, you elect the person who's going to keep you out.

Jacqueline: 36:53

And I don't know how much of the no wars for four years was due to Trump. I mean, I've I've certainly I listened to Jared Kushner and Lex Friedman talk about how, basically, they like bankrupted Iran and so Iran could not then fund institutions like Hamas or other terrorist groups. And you know, if, if Trump did that, then like, maybe that's on, maybe that's a good thing, and so you know, I think that's a valid reason to vote for somebody. And then the inflation was like largely the result of the pandemic, but also largely due to Trump's tariffs that Biden didn't take away and due to, like large transfers of money into families' pockets who were fucked over by the pandemic. So it's like but people don't know, like I don't know enough about inflation to give a really cogent explanation of how that happened. So how's anybody else supposed to? What they experience is like I mean even jason, you know like jason lost a lot of money under biden. That doesn't mean it was biden's fault, but car payments rock like skyrocketed, house payments skyrocketed.

Kibby: 37:58

Housing crisis now, yeah.

Jacqueline: 38:00

Yeah, yeah, all sorts of shit was bad, and Jason's lucky enough to make a high enough income to where we can keep our basic livelihoods, but if you live on the margin of that, you can't, and so who are you going to vote for? So, I mean, I think there are perfectly valid reasons to vote for Trump's policy. What I do think Trump supporters need to understand about liberals and this whole Hitler comparison, because to them it's yet another like you accuse us of, of dividing the country, when you're going to call our, like our candidate, hitler. Are you serious?

Kibby: 38:32

Right right, right right, but what?

Jacqueline: 38:33

liberals see, is something quite obvious, which is like we are noticing similar patterns to what happened in post-World War I Germany. Now, maybe these patterns have also happened in many situations where nothing bad happened, and what's really going on is that it happened to happen in post-World War I Germany in a way that everybody learned about, and so everybody associates with that bad outcome Germany in a way that everybody learned about, and so everybody associates with that bad outcome. You know, like this very same cultural phenomenon could have happened in France 50 years ago and we just don't know about it because nobody knows anything about France 50 years ago, because nothing terrible happened in France 50 years ago. So, but we are seeing a clear association. But we're also seeing things like January 6th.

Jacqueline: 39:15

We're seeing that Trump would not accept the results of election, election that he constantly called it into question, that he sowed doubt and distrust in our electoral system and the basics of our democracy, that he incited a riot on the Capitol, that his supporters wanted to lynch the vice president for not doing what Trump wanted him to do. Those are all horrifying things. Trump wanted him to do. Those are all horrifying things and I don't think that we can just laugh it off and just say that liberals are, like, yet again doing whatever they can to get their way, you know, and like victimize this poor man who just keeps being victimized even though he was born into as much power as one could have. Being victimized even though he was born into as much power as one could have, but like, no, like you know, I think it's very important for us here to understand the trump supporter side, but it's also very important for the trump supporters to understand our side.

Jacqueline: 40:09

Like you, can't have unity without those two things happening yeah and I think there has to be some sort of an acknowledgement of trump having some really fucking questionable behavior yep, so what?

Kibby: 40:22

what's the solution here? Like what on a I'm trying to think on like a day-to-day level, what do you think we should do?

Jacqueline: 40:32

I guess I think that we should understand A that we are consuming different media and that a lot of the divisiveness can be explained by the fact that we are literally consuming different information. And if we are consuming different information that's presented as fact, then we're going to live in two different realities. And we're going to live in two different realities and in order to try to conjoin our realities, we have to have some basic trust in human beings that the vast majority of us want the same basic things and that we are inherently decent, like now AI, or like really dedicated accounts or media.

Kibby: 41:17

that's just like we're going to distill the common factor among like almost like a rotten tomatoes of of media. Just like what are we talking about in common, that we know that both sides are saying, and just like filter out all the other bias.

Jacqueline: 41:34

I, that would be awesome yeah, I mean, I think, I think people are going to be popular because people want to hear the bias. But you know like but, I think people basically want health and safety and respect. Um, I think people basically want peace and they want to be able to have the freedom to say what they think. And this was another big point against Kamala Harris I heard about is that she was so establishment, she was such a Democrat that she never came across as authentic once.

Jacqueline: 42:07

And I think the reason she never came across as authentic once is because everything she said got torn apart and she was called dumb and stupid and unqualified all the time. She had to be very careful, but Trump came across as exceedingly authentic and he had three hour talks on joe rogan, you know, yeah, yeah, so, so the name calling and the inherent disrespect, I mean I hope it can go down, just so that people can fucking speak again yeah I mean I.

Jacqueline: 42:33

I don't. I don't know how you can say that liberals are the only condescending ones when you look at a woman who is a federal prosecutor, a US senator and vice president and say that she's unqualified for the presidency.

Kibby: 42:48

Yeah.

Jacqueline: 42:49

Or that she's stupid and has a low IQ.

Kibby: 42:51

Yeah.

Jacqueline: 42:52

When she she beat Trump in the debate, it was pretty objective, um, so I mean we got to cool it with that shit.

Kibby: 43:05

Yeah, I would say that like finding respect for the other side and finding respect for just what the other side has to say, or like sides have to say um and stop. Like I mean, but that's a thing, that's like that's another part of the article like we just, we're just so angry that we're latching on to angry rhetoric and I mean god, I mean talk about how many times that we've watched reality tv just puts like, just to put hate somewhere, right like my, I remember that our at duke, our, our lovely um supervisor, dr batson, was like in the beginning of like I think it was the beginning of covid, or beginning like around the pandemic.

Kibby: 43:50

He was just like watch, there's going to be a lot of um, just like floating anxiety, like we're we're coming into crisis right now and there's going to be a lot of just like floating anxiety, like we're coming into crisis right now and there's no like person to blame, there's no like clear enemy. It's just like the world is changing and we don't know why or how or what this means and we're scared and so, and then, like now, we have all these terrible wars. It's like we want to have a hero right, and we want to also have an enemy. That's just human nature. They want a God and a devil, right, and so we're finding that in each other and that's just so toxic. That part is toxic. Instead of just being like, I'm scared because I don't know how we can afford a rent, I don't know how we can build a family in this right.

Jacqueline: 44:42

Yeah, I think I'm struggling and a lot of other people are struggling with this dilemma, though At some point, everybody on earth has to draw a line with other people of what kind of behavior and attitude they're willing to tolerate. And I think a lot of Democrats are in a position where they look at a Trump supporter and they say, okay, you must be at some level. Okay With tearing families apart, with making immigrants the enemy, with dehumanizing other people, with accepting rape, you know, with accepting, like, various forms of dehumanization, and I am not okay with that. And so how can you and I find common ground? And what is the cost of that? Right, you know, when I think about, like I'm going, I would like to watch Donald Trump on Joe Rogan.

Jacqueline: 45:30

I started it, I would like to finish it. A lot of Trump supporters are telling me, like, have faith, it's going to be okay. And for me, the problem is I actually feel a sense of danger at the idea of watching Trump and trying to trust him, because for me, that is like looking at my ex-boyfriend and saying let's be friends again.

Kibby: 45:53

Yeah.

Jacqueline: 45:54

When I know the profile, yeah, yeah, how about this?

Kibby: 45:59

It's kind of like how we would tell our patients when they're like, why am I cutting myself? Why am I doing drugs? Like I can't, I keep getting drawn to it. The way we think about it is okay. We know that that thing that you're drawn, you're like can't help yourself and keep defaulting on that. That thing that you're drawn, you're like can't help yourself and keep defaulting on it has, like negative consequences. Like there's something in your mind, even if you're, like, in the moment, willing to overlook those, those bad things.

Kibby: 46:25

It's like these things have bad consequences, right, like drugs are bad for you, but let's look at why you're drawn to it. Let's look at what it gives you and try to find healthier ways where it doesn't involve the bad stuff, right? So, like, looking at what does Trump give people, what does that movement? What is what is so appealing about it that it feels like it's filling a need? And how can we do that without someone with all of this, like you know, troubled past and questionable behavior? Like I'm not talking about just politics, right, I'm not talking about just. Like the person I'm talking about, like, can we get action and change and activate it, find a place to channel our anger that doesn't involve also like abusing women? Um yeah, I think.

Jacqueline: 47:19

I think embedded in what you're saying is it might feel unsafe to, or against our values to see the humanity and the other side, but what are the consequences of that? Yeah, if the consequences of division are actually that the world gets worse, then do we make a different choice. Do we say me to Trump supporters hey, we fundamentally disagree on some things, but I'm also going to choose to believe. Believe because I can't just believe that the majority of the country are assholes, you know, just because they don't vote like I do, I'm not going to choose to see like I know. I know that your party is made up of decent people. I know that your party, that your supporters or whatever, are consuming different information from me and that therefore, it is completely legitimate that you would draw different conclusions than me in some similar cultural realities as I am, one of which is that we've actually normalized and accepted sexual assault to such a degree that this is unsurprising and that doesn't mean that will never change. And another is that you live in different cultural realities for me, which is, while I can take a hit on gas and food prices, maybe you can't and maybe I need to accept that. You know and I can have a fundamental trust in the human race to know that certain circumstances can push people to nasty behavior. But one of those, like all people are, are decent and want nice things, like, want good, healthy, beautiful things, and if we can come together instead of pushing each other away, that is more likely to come out and a trump supporter might look at us and say instead of you elitist, condescending motherfuckers who won't let us say anything and who are essentially hypocritical, you were willing to elect Bill Clinton even though he had valid sexual assault accusations against him.

Jacqueline: 49:53

You were allowing to elect Ted Kennedy, even though it was a similar situation. You allowed the Hunter Biden laptop fiasco to go down without much of a whimper. Maybe there's some legitimacy in what you think too. Maybe you're scared, maybe you feel betrayed, maybe you're hurt, maybe you're seeing things in a different way that I'm seeing things and I'm going to say the same thing to you. We have basic human decency. As long as we aren't at odds with each other, as long as we aren't at war and therefore trying to protect ourselves, I guess that's the best I can do. Yeah, yeah.

Kibby: 50:29

Yeah, I think just more like trying to understand the other side.

Kibby: 50:34

I mean the thing is that we think just more like trying to understand the other side.

Kibby: 50:39

I mean the thing is that we um, having that stance is hard right now, because right now emotions are high, people don't have capacity.

Kibby: 50:46

I mean, like taking someone else's perspective takes a lot of work right and getting over the way we feel and stuff like that it's it's hard. So I know like right now, you know, the, the, the Trump side is like super excited and the Democrat side are just really bummed. So like right now, this is not the moment to like all come together, right, but I think we have to eventually. I think we have to just like have a little bit more tolerance to freedom of speech and having dialogue, open dialogue, and try to understand from different perspectives and having more of like a diversity of thought than just like no, my side, no, my side, no, the way I see is right. The way I see is right, like we know from couples, therapy doesn't work right, like let's find the common vulnerable emotion that connects us the fear, the vulnerability, the fear of the future and then like work from there instead of just trying to battle about whose perspective is correct.

Jacqueline: 51:42

You know, it'd be awesome if, like, there was a couples therapy, but for different voters, and you could just like, yeah, you could just, I don't. I still don't know why we don't have couples therapy for friendships.

Kibby: 51:53

Hey we can yeah, we can, cool Mind can, like you, you know promote that about like trying to find, trying to use like relationship skills and a variety of relationships, a variety of like different relationships. Yeah, because this is also I mean, this is very topical because political divides are dividing families, like there's a lot of estrangement because your parents are of a different political leaning than you are, and it's ripping families apart.

Jacqueline: 52:22

So I think a question to ask might be like what do I gain by never speaking to my father again? You know, what do I really gain? Is it? Is it actually more in line with your values to to cut out a person for believing something different than you? In some cases, it is.

Jacqueline: 52:41

That's why we don't befriend neo-Nazis usually you know, and so I understand how that's actually not that obvious of a question to answer, but do we change their minds by doing that? Do we help ourselves by doing, you know, if it's someone who actually we really cared about and believed in for a long time? So I don't know. I think for those of you wanting to know just how to deal with the election like, we've got other episodes where we talk about self-soothing and, you know, managing anxiety and depression and all of that's still relevant, but I think right now it's also a question of how do we have some faith in the future?

Kibby: 53:23

yeah I I mean, I'm just leaning more towards the, the, the idea of self-compassion and compassion yeah um theories, where it's like the way to cultivate compassion is to really focus on a common humanity and focus on what's underneath, what's coming out right we're all trying to deal with like fear and vulnerability in different ways, with anger, with blame, with shaming right, and just like let's calm down with that because that's alienating each other and alienating feels good right, like separating yourself from people you feel are dangerous. Feels like you have, we have control, but maybe sometimes it's more the scary thing of leaning into like we're losing control here and scary and blame and maybe like looking down on a trump supporter is not really going to help this situation yeah, what I will say to the trump supporters that did respond to me.

Jacqueline: 54:19

Most of them actually would end their messages with something like hey, like thank you for thinking deeply. Or like, hey, you know, hope, all this aside, like hope you're having a good weekend, or something. You know, there was actually a little bit of a turn back to it, not, in some cases it was surprisingly easy to just like. I had one. I had like a former friend of mine who was saying a bunch of shit and a lot of it was pissing me off, whatever, and then he was like by the way, how's new york, how's it been to be back?

Jacqueline: 54:46

and it was surprisingly easy to just be like. You know what new york's been fine yes yep, yep, because actually where I think you find the most common humanity is by putting politics aside and just remembering, like fundamentally this this guy is curious about how I am yeah, yeah, I it's.

Kibby: 55:06

it's like like how I felt you and I watched the um, the vice presidential debate, tim waltz and uh and jd vance, and and by the end I was like, oh, this feels so good because it's just toward the end they were coming more and more together and they were like I, you know, like they would go back and forth, being like I agree with you that we need to solve this problem.

Kibby: 55:28

We just have different ways of seeing the solution and I was like, wow, that's what I want, like just, that's what we need. It's like a coming together of like we want to solve these issues and respect that, to have a diversity of solutions, because that's actually better for brainstorming and coming up with good solutions. Right, not to have like one way of seeing how to fix things, but like, hey, we all need to, we all want a problem solved. Let's do a big think tank brainstorming session, respecting all these different ways of solving it and figure out which way is best. I'm like, oh, that's what I want. So yeah, yeah.

Jacqueline: 56:01

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. We're all made up of the same stuff. Human beings are all made up of blood and gore and bones and shit, you know. And like, the way that we start being at odds with each other is not that some people are just born evil and some people are born good? Like the Democrats missed something, we're missing something big. Why did I just call?

Kibby: 56:21

myself.

Jacqueline: 56:21

We're missing something big about this, about about our social world and culture and what people need right now. And I think when I talked to a lot of liberal people, it's just like, yeah, we're just doomed, we're just, we're just a country full of racists and I was like, well, maybe. If we want to be a country that's not full of racists. We gotta, we gotta do something different, man.

Kibby: 56:44

Yeah, we will lean on what, what, what you and I have at the core, which is, you know, like learning by doing like let's not, let's, I don't. We both don't like this, this trend of like refusal and avoidance and and hiding, like we like going out, experiencing the world, learning from other perspectives, respecting others' perspectives, identifying your values and being open to many other people's, like kind of more of a tolerance perspective. So that's what we should lean on a little bit more. At least that's what I, what we're trying to do. So I think that's the, that's the tip for everyone is like be compassionate, that's all.

Jacqueline: 57:24

I've got to say All right, everyone, I hope you are doing okay. For those of you who are hurting right now, I hope we can all remember that progress isn't linear, that different things need to happen in order for progress to be made and actually, maybe this election, some good will come of it. Some needed change will happen for us to come together someday and hopefully we can have faith in that and if not, we'll handle what comes. For now, we will see you in a couple weeks and I will say if who you really want to be president is either me or Kibbe, please give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Bye everyone.

Jacqueline: 58:11

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