Speaker 1: 0:17

Hey, Little Helpers. Today, Kibbe and I are returning to our favorite topic, but we didn't realize that what most of you are looking for is actually help with this topic. But in didn't realize that what most of you are looking for is actually help with this topic, but in relation to a different person. So in doing some research for Cooler Mind, we asked you all who in your life do you need the most help with, and with what disorder, and the overwhelming response that we got was narcissistic parents. So today we're going to talk about what are the effects of having narcissistic parents and what might this be like for you, for your relationships. How might that show up? And again like how maybe it's best to deal with your parents or set boundaries with your parents and maybe also empathize with them. So, Kibbe, I'll turn it over to you first, Talk about what you're developing.

Speaker 2: 1:08

Yeah, I couldn't believe how popular the topic is of narcissistic parents. I think a lot of people are struggling with this. Talking to our community, what we've learned is people are talking about parents who are really self-involved and emotionally unavailable or emotionally dysregulated. So that could look like borderline personality disorder. It could look like some parent who has an addiction, is just like not around, not available, or just just so focused on their own needs that they're not there for the person. So I think when people say narcissistic parents in general, they're meaning parents who weren't emotionally there for them. What do you think?

Speaker 1: 1:50

Yeah, I mean I think you know just from, like, my interaction with people I don't entirely know.

Speaker 1: 1:54

I think that's a good way to define it for the purposes of this conversation, because narcissism is a concept that is so either overused or there's just a massive number of narcissists walking around our planet and I don't know which is true, but um, but at the end of the day, it's a spectrum, and so all of our parents display some sort of narcissistic traits. I mean, mine do. I will as a parent, but I essentially don't see my parents as people who couldn't put my needs first. And I think that's the major difference when we talk about truly narcissistic parents versus maybe like boomer parents who have certain expectations of their kids, and really that a lot of the hurt that comes in is noticing that, yes, at times they seem to delight their parents, at times their parents make big gestures and declare their love and are basically around, but there's just this sense that when push comes to shove, in a lot of ways parents will not put their needs of the child first.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Yeah, that emotional deprivation seems to be a big theme and people like us who struggle with growing up in an environment where they feel emotionally unappreciated right Like you feel feeling unseen, feeling like they don't belong, feeling really lonely, even though their family life might not have been traumatic or abusive.

Speaker 2: 3:40

It just they grow up feeling like they're not worthwhile, they have low self-esteem, they constantly are chasing emotionally unavailable partners. So, cool Mind. We're really focusing on building what someone like that needs, like the skills to actually be seen and be loved and to take care of your own emotions and to fill that void in healthy ways instead of maybe those toxic cycles that people get in. So it's just a really near and dear thing to our hearts because thinking about what we want for cool of mind, it's really like how can we help people the way we were helped? I personally was helped with a lot of therapy, a lot of really good strategies and support around me, and I've really grown up with a narcissistic home, so to speak, and had a lot of really unhealthy relationship, attachment patterns, so to speak, flip-flopping from like anxious to avoid it and all that stuff, but really learning the skills I actually had to love and be loved and I think same for you right.

Speaker 1: 4:44

Yeah, I mean I would not classify my home as narcissistic, but a little bit grandiose in certain ways. But of course I've struggled with men and dating and feeling valuable to other people and incompetent and asserting my worth at times, and I think that that's a very common story, so it's. I mean, I think most people can really use these kinds of strategies and support.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Yeah. So you know, before we really dive into this topic, I'll say that in Kula Mind we are we're building a community where we'll do webinars and a lot of give, a lot of resources and educational, like Q&A's, so people can learn what narcissism is, what is self-esteem, what are relationships, how do you actually make changes in those, but also through one on one coaching and really anything you need. So we're really building whatever people need to really learn these skills and make them stick, building whatever people need to really learn these skills and, like, make them stick. If you're curious about that, you could go to coolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom. Or actually now we put in the show notes a place where you could text me and Jacqueline directly. So there's like a send a text. Yeah, there's a send a text button at the very top, just like tap on that, you could talk to us and just, even if you want to, just like ask questions or say hey, just shoot us a text there.

Speaker 1: 6:08

Okay, well, so when we're like thinking about this topic, I got a lot of questions from followers that I want to answer within this episode, and the big thrust that I got from the questions was how do I make them understand that what they're doing is wrong or that they're hurting my feelings or something or other? And I don't know if this is where we want to start with this episode, but I do want to acknowledge that I think a big part of growing up with a narcissistic parent is that your own perspective doesn't get validated, taken seriously, prioritized, and so there's this huge just I mean, there's a really big need to be heard by other people and a kind of potentially dysregulated way of getting heard.

Speaker 2: 7:00

It almost seems like I mean the way it felt like for me was. It almost seems like I mean the way it felt like for me was I didn't really get someone to take care of me in the way I needed to when I was a kid and so I really really want that. I really really wanted that growing up, but then didn't trust it when I got it. So there's this real push and pull of like I need to be something special or do something special for anyone to actually give a shit about me and then if I don't do those things at full throttle all the time, my whole world will come crashing down and no one will actually want me. Then I wouldn't trust actual intimacy, Like I wouldn't trust act. When someone says they love me, I'm like, yeah, you know, I would feel good. But there's a back of my mind that was like, yeah, but you know, yeah, but it's, it's only because I did something that you liked. It's only what I did for you.

Speaker 1: 7:52

Yeah, it's it's confusing because, in a way, like friendship is about what you do for other people, like if you are a good listener, if you are a good carer, or if you are a good listener, if you are a good carer, or if you are a generous, or if you are charismatic whatever. You know what I mean. Like if you have something to offer, then another person is going to want to pick that up you for what you produce, rather than who you are. That it's maybe. Just it's hard to know. Like, yes, I give things and that's important in a relationship, but is there, how do I know that there's any love for me as a human being in this as well.

Speaker 2: 8:36

Yeah, this is something we talked about before with unconditional love. Is that even real? Like, if you are a terrible person, if you're a terrible kid, you know, do you deserve unconditional love? I mean, I don't have the answer for that, but looking at the literature, the five different characteristics of a parent who's narcissistic is one, lack of empathy, two, grandiosity. Three, criticism. Four, control, manipulation, and five, parentification.

Speaker 2: 9:06

So really all of those different qualities are about like this person wants to needs some sort of like, admiration and certain kind of status or certain kind of special status in order to be worthy of in its special status, in order to be worthy. And so what they do to the kid is that they devalue them like, really criticize them whenever they don't fulfill that standard, really focus on the showiness and don't attune to the kid's needs, right. And so I still don't know the answer about the, you know, unconditional love. But I I do know, being a parent, you really have to work hard to put their needs above yours, like if you're tired, if you're bummed out, if you need like affection or whatever, and that kid is crying or in distress, like you need to show up for them, like you need to just like put your stuff aside and then and then help the kid. I mean not 100% of the time, but like that's the role of the mom, and if they don't do that, then this like reversal happens, where the kid becomes the parent. Gratification, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:19

I it's. It's interesting. I was thinking about this distinction earlier. I was like okay, my parents, when I said my family's a little bit grandiose. What I mean is that there is a sense that the whole family is supposed to uphold the egos of each one of the members, so like we are all supposed to be beautiful and successful and therefore reflect on like each other that way, like it's overly important.

Speaker 1: 10:49

Well, but it's.

Speaker 1: 10:50

But it's interesting, right, like yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:51

So yes, there's pressure to to be a certain level of a couple of characteristics, yeah, but I wouldn't say the coldness is there, the control, the manipulation, the parentification, the victimization, any of that, which is why, to me, my family just feels a little bit boomer, like, um, there was huge pressure to be thin all throughout, like the 90s and the 80s, and I think that that's like part of my family and we were taught like you should do big things, you have big brains, use them, don't.

Speaker 1: 11:33

And a lot of this I'm like I'm probably going to pass on to my own kids. I mean maybe differently stylistically, but I am going to have expectations and I know you'll have expectations of Jackson, expectations, and I know you'll have expectations of Jackson, um. So so yeah, in a way, I'm like, okay, I've had to live up to a standard that is sometimes a little bit unforgiving, but when I haven't reached it, have I gotten criticism? Yes, but I wouldn't say I've felt loved less, um, and I wouldn't say I've had to, like apologize for not meeting that standard yeah um or like and and that's a weird thing to say like I'm sorry, mom, that I'm not thin enough like, of course not.

Speaker 1: 12:17

but at the same time, I think a lot of people who grew up with narcissistic parents find themselves in this role where they are constantly apologizing for existing, constantly apologizing for not being the narcissistic supply that they are there to be. If they produce any kind of narcissistic injury in their parents, then it can be World War III and they have to grovel and submit and erase themselves in a certain way, and when you do that long enough, that's really dysregulating.

Speaker 2: 12:53

I mean you're a really interesting example because your family does have high standards for social markers of success, right Like professionally and physically, and yet they still have the secret ingredient of like loving you and loving their kids right. So what did that? When you said, if you didn't meet that standard, they might say something, but you didn't feel less love Like what does that look like?

Speaker 1: 13:24

something. But you didn't feel less love. Like what does that look like? Um, I can tell that my parents or sibling I think it's really just one sibling are bothered that I should be a little bit hotter, but and they might say something about it. But ultimately it's not like I'm frozen out. It's not like I don't make my mother like laugh with delight. It's not like my mother misses me any less or wants to see me any less.

Speaker 1: 13:52

And when I said to her, I said to her she sent me this message after I'd gained weight. That was like truly kind of absurd. And I said to her something like mom, you're acting as if I have cancer and I'm refusing chemotherapy. Like when she talked to me about why I wasn't losing weight and she's felt so guilty about that ever since. And she's brought it up no-transcript. And you know, like I didn't meet her standard for sexual chastity either. But when I talk about it she doesn't like get cold and rejecting and disdainful. She usually actually jokes with me about it and she has done a lot of work. I can tell to like come around and accept it, even though it's something that she was raised to find really important and something that makes her very nervous, like if her daughters have sex with men who don't love them, you know. So, yeah, I I feel like I've pushed my mom's standards in many ways and ultimately she's very proud of me, but I never felt like I was truly risking any kind of real rejection.

Speaker 2: 15:24

Did you feel the emotional responsiveness Like when I was reading the research um narcissistic parents are high in control and standards and criticism, but they don't respond to their kids needs. Do you feel like? I mean, what does it look like when you're, when you have a need and you turn to your family? What did they? How did they respond?

Speaker 1: 15:50

They take it serious. I mean, the person I would probably go to is my mother, but I've gone to various members of my family. They take it seriously, they make time for it. She'll, she'll talk to me exhaustively about it if I need her to, and sometimes she doesn't get it quite right, but she, you know, the time is there, the energy spent is there. Um, she doesn't like turn around and make it about her or say, well, this is, you know, when I went through this, unless it's productive, um, and you know, I mean I think that there's like this is a psychobabble term, but there's like affect matching, you know, I mean I think that there's like this is a psychobabbly term, but there's like affect matching. You know I mean she's not writing me off or sort of scoffing at me or telling me to get over it that's awesome that's nice yeah, no, it's nice.

Speaker 2: 16:37

Yeah, I mean I had, I had. Like it's weird because when I really reflect on it now, I come from a long line of narcissists. I mean my dad was had a lot of narcissistic traits, my mom does, and my grandmother, my mom's mom, definitely did, and my mom's mom was the quintessential narcissist. Um, I loved her like I really. I really she was a really nice grandma and usually narcissistic parents are actually really nice to the grandkids because they don't have. The problem with the kids is that the kids. You'll see when you have kids, jacqueline, it's like this. What is this called? It's like ego extension, narcissistic projection, that's what it is. Narcissistic projection where your flaws, like the kid, is like yourself, so you are just as hard on them as you are on yourself and like yeah, so they become like an extension of you.

Speaker 2: 17:33

So that sucks if you are hard on yourself, but with my grandma she was really nice to me but she, um, was like a tiny little asian chinese lady and when I really think about it it's pretty amazing. She was like a tiny little Asian Chinese lady and when I really think about it it's pretty amazing. She was like a seamstress, tailor's daughter in Cincinnati, just like. I think she was abused in many ways and worked her way up to Hong Kong and the life that she led and she was really like social climbing in some ways, like she really liked um, she really liked it when people praised her. She really you know, uh, you know, like got in with people that she thought were high status and she would be really withholding of her affection. She would with my mom and her siblings. She would praise one and then she would praise another one to one of the kids. Right, she would like tell my mom how great her sister was and then, like talk shit about other kids. So she would like curry favor amongst the different siblings and they would have to really work hard to get her attention and so she was like this larger than life person that everyone was like fighting for their attention and so that just left not much for the kids and I saw that as a survival mechanism.

Speaker 2: 18:55

Right, a lot of narcissists I mean, for as much as we talk about the toxic blah, blah, blah narcissism is often like a defense mechanism, right, it's like I went through trauma or had a bad background and there was just one thing I could do to actually keep me safe and loved. Like I'm gonna do that hard and make sure everyone else that I love does that hard. So my grandma definitely was the narcissistic parent and I could see the effects on my mom. Like I could see how she will always go through life and this is the thing that breaks my heart she'll always go through life feeling unloved yeah, I mean you could say that most of narcissism is a defense mechanism.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Um, I mean, there's healthy narcissism but, yeah, yeah, when you, when you don't feel as though who you actually are is something that can be loved by other people because that's how you've been treated through your formative years, then you're going to figure out what you think can be loved and project that as much as possible. But being loved for a projection of yourself isn't very filling, um, and it's rickety and liable to be fractured and when that happens it's extremely threatening. What if you can see through the projection to the unlovable, damaged self inside? And then what if I have to see through the projection towards the unlivable, damaged self inside? And then what if I have to see through the projection towards the unlovable, damaged self inside and can no longer be the projection, then what does that mean? I'm now completely vulnerable and threatened and, and that is just such a tension that doesn't leave a lot of room for anything else.

Speaker 1: 20:42

You know, it's interesting when I was thinking about would narcissistic parents ever put the needs of their child above themselves? I could see a narcissistic parent taking a bullet for their child. I could see narcissistic parents putting the needs of their child above their own in certain ways, but I don't know if they can put the emotional needs of the child above their own in certain ways. But I don't know if they can put the emotional needs of the child above their own, because that's what's actually threatened in them. I could see putting their child's physical welfare above their own, their safety above their own, but the emotional needs when, when you spend all of your time and energy protecting yourself from ever being seen and suddenly you are being criticized for what something you did, then that is that's the threat.

Speaker 1: 21:41

Is there? I'm being seen, not the project, because the perfect projection is perfect. The projection can't do anything wrong. So if I'm being criticized, it means I've been seen. Oh my god, absolutely not. That is what I protect myself against at all costs. I don't go there. You deal with that on your own. You that those must be your bad feelings. Projection that that wouldn't do that thing. That's not possible. It must be your bad feelings. Projection that wouldn't do that thing, that's not possible.

Speaker 2: 22:08

It must be your fault. Go Interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. So you're saying that emotional needs are like vulnerability or are like I mean it's also like what do you mean by emotional needs? I think that could be really.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Yeah, I mean, if somebody like narcissism, it's like we act as if it's this very clear-cut thing, but I don't think it. If we think about my ex-fiancee, for example, yeah, it's not like all of my emotional needs were neglected. If I needed a hug, if I um had a shitty day, uh, if I needed someone to celebrate with me, he could usually do those things, unless it came at a cost to himself, and especially if the cost to himself was acknowledging a defect in himself.

Speaker 1: 23:00

And that's the one thing the narcissist cannot do Interesting. So if you're a narcissist and I say to you, hey, it hurt my feelings when you x, or like, hey, could you do the dishes? There's a sink full of them. Why you know? Like, why can't you help me more? Or I need you to show up for me without inserting yourself, like, do you know what I mean? Like, if there's any kind of criticism behind the need, it's, it's unlikely to be met.

Speaker 2: 23:32

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, because it's so fragile, right, their sense of self-worth is so tied to a specific thing. And it's interesting thinking about your ex because your ex and I both I remember relating to him with the narcissism being around your professional ever like your intelligence or your professional output, right, productivity in some ways, like him being useful, him being like doing things well or something was something that was very proud of. So like, if that one thing was criticized, I'm not just that, you know, it's also control over you was really important too, right.

Speaker 2: 24:13

That's like a narcissistic thing. They need control over another person.

Speaker 1: 24:18

If I were his narcissistic supply, if I was the person who provided him with an idealized view of himself, for one thing, I mean, I thought he was like a perfect human being when I first met him. Um, if I was this like pretty girl that made him look good and like made him look like he could get high status women, um then it was very, very threatening. If I would go elsewhere with that. He was very afraid that I would cheat on him. I was very afraid that I would bring that supply to somebody else and therefore bring him shame and destroy his ego and yada, yada, yada. I'm not saying that's the only reason people fear that they'll be cheated on, but when you're doing everything in your power to control another person, it suggests that there's something more to the story than just yeah that would be a betrayal of our intimacy.

Speaker 2: 25:16

It's been so long since we've talked about him and now all those memories are flooding back, so interesting. But yeah, it's like the, the other person, the narcissistic supply, the kid, the girlfriend, whatever. It's this feeling of being objectified, right, it's like your emotional needs might be met or your needs might be met, but if it's, if it's in service of them, right, like if he meets your emotional needs and it's like responsive and loving and whatever. When you're, when you're sad that that keeps you close, right, it's like the stuff that would I mean, I it's.

Speaker 2: 25:48

It's weird because I'm starting, it's starting to feel like an addiction, right, I've kind of said this before but, it's this, it's this sense from this parent, like there is one thing that they need, like food, like they're acting like they're starving and they need food. And when, when you're starving, all you can think about is just fulfilling that basic need. And it almost seems like when there's, when narcissistic parents are starved of the admiration or validation or attention that they need like food, everything else dims.

Speaker 1: 26:25

And it's.

Speaker 2: 26:26

It's funny because it's like what was it about my mom that felt similar now to back then, when she was drinking? Like things that are changed dramatically since she's gotten sober. However, there's something about it that felt that still feels really like. I still feel it a lot and it really bothers me. Um, and it's this feeling that there's something else that is more important than what's going on with me. Right, like if I, if I, if my emotional and before it was alcohol and now it's like love, which is confusing because it's like she's warm and she's loving and she is responsive and empathetic, and yet I sense that it's not about me, which is the most annoying part, like when she says I love you, or when I I even want her and need her and she responds to me. It's, it feels less like this is a mom who's paying attention to their kids needs and they're going to do it. It's like she's finally getting the food, she's getting a snack, and she's like all in, um, and I resent it, so it's just yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:28

When we think about addiction, people become addicted to the thing. Sometimes it's because there's actual physical addiction that goes on. But in general when there's an addiction, you're addicted to what makes you feel safe. So alcohol makes you feel safe because you can. It helps you avoid hard emotions and hard experiences, it helps you avoid social awkwardness, it helps you avoid shame, it helps you avoid all sorts of things, right, because you're just drinking, you're just fucking yourself up, you're putting yourself out of your misery, and when that is taken away from the addict, there's a big gaping vacuum there. What now is going to make you feel safe? Well, hopefully a whole bunch of other stuff that comes in, like great social support and meaning and a fulfilling career, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But if you don't really fill that back up, it's hard. If you don't really fill that back up, it's hard.

Speaker 1: 28:34

And if you're narcissistic, you're narcissistic probably because you have a big gaping vacuum in your life from early childhood and so, yeah, I mean the addict is so fully focused on getting the thing that makes them feel safe they are all threat detection that if that's taken away, it's chaos, there's lying, there's violence, there's you's, you know, tantrums, there's a lot of things. And so now, yeah, your mom didn't doesn't have the alcohol to make her feel safe, but what's her big game? Vacuum is lovability. So I I think that going for love and affection would make some sense, but it sounds like you're experiencing not it not as her putting love into you, but her extracting love from you and putting it into herself, and that's not about you yeah, it's so confusing it really is to feel safe.

Speaker 2: 29:19

Yeah yeah, I think that vulnerable narcissists are really tricky like this. I think your ex is, like you know, tricky because of like this, my mom, where if their addiction is love, it's so confusing because it's like, wow, they love me so much. They and the worst is like the gaslighting. The gaslighting, but I mean I will hear people to this day say your mom loves you so much. She's just so sad because she loves you so much. And I'm like how can I explain to anyone that her loving me is somehow the most unloving thing I could feel, right like it did it.

Speaker 2: 29:58

Just it feels aggressive when she loves me, because it's not like you know, if I need space, if I need rest, if I need space, if I need rest, if I need something else, she'll get angry with me.

Speaker 1: 30:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:11

And it's like. It's like no I to to feel loved and to actually feel like you are a loving parent, like respect, what I need in that moment, Like I was, literally I just had my mastectomy, my, I had my boobs amputated, I had tubes coming out of me, like literally, like plastic tubes coming out of my chest. I was so exhausted, I was so in pain and drugged up and I was asking for can Jackson come play here with you instead of going to your house? And she just yelled at me and it just like she's still to this day. Like, literally today I was texting with her. She still doesn't understand why I'm taking space so it's just like oh gosh, she loves me so much.

Speaker 2: 30:59

She wanted to play with you know, play with my kid and be a great grandmother. How terrible, like that's what. That's what she's telling everyone. I'm like I I needed something from her and my most vulnerable and I didn't.

Speaker 2: 31:14

I I not only didn't get it, but I got backlash for saying that I needed something and and I think this is this is like a suspicion of mine I think it bothered her that I was in a position of so much need that it definitely would trump whatever she needed at the time. Right like her need to play with jackson in her house was not as important as, like me, recovering from cancer and surgery. Right like I mean, now I'm sounding entitled right now, but like you know what I mean like having your breasts amputated.

Speaker 1: 31:50

That's fucked up. That's fucked up. That's a time when a daughter needs support from her mother and other people. But, like you, you had an experience that was incredibly fundamental. You are literally vulnerable. You are literally going through something traumatic. Your body is currently being traumatized and there, where was, where was the comfort of a mother?

Speaker 2: 32:18

that's horrible what was so weird is like, right, I'm getting like uncomfortable right now, like I'm really every time we bring this I know I've been talking about this in past couple episodes because it's really. It really got under my skin and I like that night like cried. I was so depressed for like that week and I'm feeling like really uncomfortable now, almost like I could feel my anxious thoughts, but it's just it. All I want to do is just like scream out to her, right, like all of my I I learned this is called like a healing fantasy, where you, if your parent doesn't see you, you fantasize about doing something that is like shakes them out of it or or them getting treatment or whatever, that they finally turn around and go.

Speaker 2: 33:09

Oh, my god, I'm so sorry. I, I didn't know you were, I didn't know I hurt you this badly. I, I was hurting and I needed something, but I, I, I'm sorry and I'll do better. And I like I just fantasize obsessively over like yelling at her these things and like maybe this is what I'm doing right now. Right, but on the podcast, like screaming out my pain more, so to speak. But oh, it's hard that it just, it doesn't like it, it doesn't go away. I mean, I I try my best to like accept her for who she is and yet there's still like that little child version. That's just like hey, like I need stuff.

Speaker 1: 33:55

It's a massive ask to just accept your mother for this kind of limitation. I mean, what you just said I'm sure is the most relatable thing that anybody with narcissistic parents has ever heard. Like, I mean, that was okay. There were three sets of questions that I got when I asked followers. One was basically what you're talking about, like how can I get through to them? And it's not, and you know it's sad because the narcissistic parent is going to hear that as like, how can I criticize them and make them understand they're wrong? But it's?

Speaker 1: 34:30

That's actually not that, that's not the need, that's being. That's not the wish fulfillment. The wish fulfillment is how can I genuinely connect with you? I can't do that if we're fundamentally not agreeing on the premises of our relationship. Like, if you can't fundamentally see that I need comfort and safety when I'm recovering from cancer, you know, especially right after mastectomy then how can I ever expect to relate to you? If my needs are fundamentally that unmet, then what kind of relationship or closeness can we ever hope to have If you can't it's like accept what I'm saying? I mean, there's really a bid for connection there, but it's just getting totally missed by the parent, as you just want to. You just want to put me down, you just want to assert power over me.

Speaker 1: 35:29

They can never let themselves be disempowered not the person in control, maybe because they've been victimized when they were like that in the past. I mean it. It's understandable from some sense, but it's extremely sad that there's just, it's just so impossible to have a genuine relationship.

Speaker 2: 35:53

Yeah, I mean I, at least my experience is like when you do what you were saying, where you're doing a bid for connection, like, hey, when you criticize me or you do this thing, or you know, listen to my needs, needs, I really want you, I really want my mom. Um, people in the community have been saying that their parents have gone. Oh, fine, I can't do anything. Right, like I can't. Fine, you don't look, I'm the worst parent. I just I'm just saying these things to, to to make you, you, the best that I possibly could, but, fine, I'm a terrible, but, like the, the, the collapse into shame with the criticism, right, they don't even say, oh, this thing, that I did hurt your feelings and let me try, try my best to meet your need. It's just like fine, it's just like throwing your hands up and walking away from the whole, from the whole thing, which is worse that's that I mean.

Speaker 1: 36:48

I think that's two, for two reasons. One is if you are genuinely thinking that only the projection of yourself is truly lovable, then what has been exposed is your true self. Then you're going to collapse into shame because your true self is unlovable and so okay that you've just seen it. There you go. The other thing is just like. It's a very strong technique for getting the love and affection and reassurance back. Yeah, because we've talked about this.

Speaker 1: 37:19

As soon as she says I'm just the worst mother, you're gonna say no, that's not true, you're a wonderful mother so yeah exactly, exactly, super, super frustrating, and I think this, like this conversation, brought up a second set of questions, which was do our parents truly love us? And and that's a really sad question, and my heart kind of broke when I read that- yeah, yeah can a narcissistic parent actually love?

Speaker 2: 37:50

and that's a complicated question to answer yeah, and I, I mean, I'm thinking about it now. I'm trying to put the framework of addiction in there, right? Like my mom admitted to choosing alcohol for me sometimes like she would. She would be actually getting a shipment of vodka to the house and she didn't want me to see, so she would pick a fight to throw me out. So she would, she would actually choose, I mean, and also like I really respect that she admitted that to me um, yeah, I'm surprised she admitted that to you.

Speaker 2: 38:30

I, yeah, it was part of part of her sobriety work, but, um, so I respect that. But can an addict love someone? I mean that that's a that's a tough thing to figure out because, like then you're like what is love and what is it the love that the person needs? And if it's like that person's brain is just in like a radar mode of like I need to get this thing, I need to get food, I need to get the drug, I need to get the love, I need to get it, whatever, then everything else becomes less important. And I mean, I do think narcissistic parents love their kids. Their love just seems to be channeled into I want the best for my kid, and maintaining that like perfect self is the way to do it. It's a way to keep everyone safe, it's a way to keep me safe. It's a way you know, like if they're just like zeroing in on the one thing they know is works for them, so they do but it's just not.

Speaker 2: 39:31

It's just it doesn't feel like love. I guess it doesn't feel like what you need.

Speaker 1: 39:38

Yeah, I think it's really important with this question in particular, to keep in mind that it's a spectrum. So when we talk about like, can narcissists love? Well, what do we mean exactly by narcissist? How narcissistic are we talking about? I mean, and and it brings up so many construct challenges what do we mean by love?

Speaker 1: 39:52

My response would be if you were dealing with somebody who fundamentally cannot put your needs first ever, then that doesn't mean that they don't appreciate you, like you feel attached to you, um, and believe that they love you, feel attached to you and believe that they love you, but it may not be a love that feels particularly meaningful to you. And what do we do with that? A lot of times when we talk about love sometimes it's so funny people will mean vastly different things. Um, when we say I'm in love, that usually means I am so enamored with the projection of who you are that I've gotten to know of your good traits, you know, like, of the feelings that, the feelings that happen in me when I experience you, and that is what I call love. And sometimes, when we say love, we mean somebody who is able to unconditionally and sacrificially put you first, and those are like vastly different definitions. I would think that people who are narcissists are able to feel enamored by the, by experiencing you, you know. Now, maybe some of them can't, but we're talking extreme end and individuals at this point but I would.

Speaker 1: 41:20

I would think that, like, narcissistic parents can sometimes put their kids need above theirs. Maybe I mean again, depending on what it is like. You'll see, for instance, you'll see a lot of narcissistic parents working themselves to death to provide, like, a certain life for their kids and that it that is a kind of love, that is a kind of sacrifice. I mean it's some people would say it's a huge sacrifice. So I don't know. I mean I think when we are looking at, like, when we have narcissistic parents and the choice is cut them out of your life totally or accept the situation, accept the relationship and figure out where, where acceptance can look like appreciation, it might be an understanding of they can't meet these needs, they can meet these other needs. When they meet these other needs, it is an expression of love. When they can't meet these other, like these first needs, it's not necessarily that they don't love me, but that they are so threatened by meeting my needs. Their sense of safety is so threatened that they can't figure out how to do it.

Speaker 2: 42:38

Something like that yeah, yeah, it's leading into acceptance. By the way, when we talk about that, narcissism is on a spectrum there. There is that scale that we found, the perceived maternal narcissism scale. I'll put that in the show notes so if people are like, how narcissistic was my parent, you could play around with that and and see how much your parent is actually narcissists. But no, I think you're right. I think it's. I think it's a lot of acceptance and leaning into what our parents are capable of.

Speaker 2: 43:08

And every single parent is flawed, right. They're like it's part of actually natural development to grow up thinking that your parents are gods and then, when you're in your adolescence, you're like, wait a minute, they're just like stupid people that are. You know they don't know what they're doing and a lot of your development is making up for those flaws and accepting them. Right, and we're we're a little bit better. With different kinds of disorders or illnesses, like if your parent got you know, god forbid Alzheimer's or some other kind of condition where they're limited, you're definitely going to feel frustrated, you're going to feel sad, you're going to feel like they can't meet your needs. You're going to feel that distance and grief, but you might not be as like expecting of them to fill that need. You're going to accept that a little bit more. I mean, who knows?

Speaker 2: 44:05

But with the narcissistic parent they might be smart, they might be attuned, they might be actually be good at empathy. That's the crazy part is, like there's so much lack of empathy and narcissism, but some of them are just really good socially and so it's confusing. Like my mom is like really really perceptive socially and yet I'm like then why can't you see how much this is hurting me? Like it, it blows my mind. Yeah, yeah, so there, so I, I'm better when I accept that like she has had a lot of emotional development problems and she can't meet the needs that I, I wish that she could, um, but then there are times when I fall back into expecting and hoping that she would, and that's when I get particularly disappointed.

Speaker 2: 44:55

So, just set your expectations low and you'll not get disappointed.

Speaker 1: 45:00

Yeah, I mean it's upsetting. It's upsetting to have to set your expectations low with the person who's supposed to give you the most love in the world it might also be like a boomer generation thing too.

Speaker 2: 45:12

I mean, estrangement is on the rise. We talked about this before, where the, the generation above us, were like get a job, uh, get you know, have stricter gender roles, like have kids, and that's the way to happy life. And now we're like I don't care that you've, like I don't care about climbing the ladder, I just wish that you would pay attention to me, right?

Speaker 1: 45:40

so it's just like difference in needs it's funny when we say boomer generation, it's probably more accurate to say that the boomer generation is much more representative of every other generation that came before. It's just that there's been a rapid like, uh, rapidly evolving in mental health and parenting science basically parenting psychology and now we have different expectations of what parents give us, um and and a lot of social mobility. That maybe didn't exist in the same way before, where boomers like raised us saying you can be anything you want to be, so go be astronauts, whereas before it was like you can at best be an accountant or like work in my electricity business or whatever.

Speaker 2: 46:27

Simpler times and now it's like, literally you can oh my god getting into the content creation world. I mean you could literally get a career as a 20 something year old being on social media. I mean like you literally get paid to be seen. I mean the value of being seen now and seen for your authentic self is all messed up.

Speaker 1: 46:51

I desperately want TikTok to get banned, but anyways, that's another story. So one of the things that I think the research is pretty incontrovertible about is that when you have narcissistic parents, you are likely to form an insecure attachment of some sort when you are older. So the third set of questions that we got was I really liked this. It was how can I prevent the narcissistic behaviors that were modeled for me and that I learned from showing up in my new relationships? So not just like how can I prevent myself from dating narcissists, but like how can I not be a narcissist when that's what was modeled? Defensiveness was modeled for me, stonewalling, silent treatment, you know, like grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement. If that's modeled for you, it's really hard. And again like if you're treated like you bring your parent happiness or pride when you perform well or accomplish, then how can you learn to let down your guard and be seen for just the normal you that isn't always perfecting or trying or accomplishing. So I think that's a rich place for discussion yeah, how?

Speaker 2: 48:21

how do you not pass down the narcissism, generational trauma? Uh?

Speaker 1: 48:28

I, I think, yeah, I think, I think that's a big part. And then I also think that what we're talking about with conditional and unconditional love is how can you prevent yourself from expecting a spouse to fulfill the role that the parent was supposed to fill? That would also be an addendum.

Speaker 2: 48:43

Yeah, yeah, and I see that the people who try to break that, I mean like narcissists, like kids of narcissists, tend to try to date narcissists and then when they try to date someone who's nice and emotionally attuned and emotionally available, boring yeah, it's like you know, like someone says like oh, it makes me, it gives me the ick, like they, they want it too much and it's just like I mean, yeah, there's just.

Speaker 2: 49:13

There actually is something that feels so good about being infatuated with this person, feels so out of reach, and then you win them and then you like worked for you, earn that love, whereas someone who just like gives it freely, you're like this is worth nothing.

Speaker 1: 49:29

I mean just like well, yeah, if you were taught your whole life that like you're loved for performing well, and then somebody just likes you for who you are, that doesn't like, that doesn't make any kind of sense. But when somebody finally sees you after you have won their affection and done cartwheels for them like you have for your parent, then that makes sense and oh my god, I got it this time. I won, I like I. I performed enough that I won the game yeah oh my god, wait, I didn't win the game.

Speaker 1: 50:01

Now you're mad at me and now you're telling me I have to perform better. Okay, okay, well, I'm used to this too. Well, okay, and I'll perform better and I'll try and try and try. And, oh my god, you're saying I did something wrong and it's all my fault, and this is also a familiar dynamic. Okay, I'll try and try and try and try. Um, so that would be more of the probably anxious attachment dance man, we could get a whole.

Speaker 2: 50:23

We should do a whole episode on this, like how to actually change attachment patterns.

Speaker 1: 50:27

That's a whole area we've done episodes on that we have, we have.

Speaker 2: 50:31

but I kind of dug into it a little bit more and it's it's really interesting. Actually. I mean I like I liked what you said before about safety, about that narcissism is a way to safety which I didn't think about before. I was thinking about is more like the dopamine hit.

Speaker 2: 50:46

But I think safety makes more sense when we think of attachment, like what do we do to feel safe, like going to our parent and having them attend to our needs? Is a is a safety mechanism, right? And then we have this blueprint for what does what keeps us safe? Being beautiful, being performing, being perfect, right, like like that's what I learned like mommy likes right, being perfectly useful and loving or whatever. And then so you have to rewire what safety means. So it's a little bit closer to, I think, like PTSD and anxiety treatments where someone's like, oh, danger, I have to you know, like how do I? How do I tell my brain to stop being afraid? So I think it's rewiring that it's instead of like safety, and for me it's like for a while it felt safe to chase a guy's affection, like that felt like the thing to do, the right way to get love and I don't know, like I think that there's a lot of like long-term work that gets you there, but I know that both of us broke that pattern and actually with men that are very different and actually like like us, for us, um, so it's possible, it's just like.

Speaker 2: 52:09

I mean, this merits like a whole other discussion, but it takes practice and it takes like. It takes like a disillusionment of that chase, right, like as you're saying like, ooh, my parents don't approve of me for you know, when I did cartwheels and tricks, but this new person does, like, don't do that, don't, don't think that you could fulfill that hole in the current people.

Speaker 1: 52:31

Right, it's about like, grieving that missing block yeah, I mean there's a big what we call like reenactment. Um, people who come from damaged relational histories often try to reenact those histories in the present. So if I could not win the affection of my father, then I'm going to reenact that same setup and see if I can win it in different relationships. And the trick is realizing that the reason you couldn't win it wasn't because you weren't good enough, it's because the game was rigged. There was no way of winning it in the first place. And so if you continue reenacting it, you're going to continue reenacting rigged setups, rigged games and you're going to keep losing over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: 53:19

New. And work probably with a therapist on what is the discomfort and the threat that I feel when somebody treats me well, when somebody is predictable. Why does that? Is it truly boredom that I'm feeling, or is it actually a different kind of discomfort that looks like boredom, kind of discomfort that looks like boredom but is actually something more akin to like disbelief that they could actually love me, or you know, it's just whatever's going on.

Speaker 1: 54:04

When we're thinking about then, when you become maybe more than more avoidant type, or when you start taking on traits of the narcissist yourself, then I mean, first of all, for the people who ask that question, like bravo, that's the first step and probably the most massive step in actually not doing that, because if you're able to say I think I might be doing something damaging and I don't want to do that, then you have a much higher likelihood of not doing it than somebody who refuses to admit or see that they do anything wrong ever, but probably examine it. I mean, the number one kind of hallmark trait of narcissism is entitlement and so noticing, I think, entitlement and where that comes up and what it means, you know like can you actually feel safe and valuable in a world where you're not special by decree, where you're not special by decree, interesting?

Speaker 2: 55:17

Yeah, part of that narcissistic parent blueprint is like, at least for me, that I had to get over. Was it led to the belief of only one person can have needs at a time? If one person has a need, another, the other person cannot, and usually it's me who cannot have that Right. So part of if narcissists tend to make narcissists, so there's like narcissistic traits that pass down, and so if you are noticing narcissistic traits in yourself, know that it, you know, comes from that feeling of deprived and the feeling of fear that if I'm myself, that no one's going to love me.

Speaker 2: 55:58

But then actually when you're with people, try to be empathetic, right Like actually attuned to their needs. Put yours aside for a moment, but know that just because you are attending to someone else's needs doesn't mean yours don't don't matter anymore. You could both have needs and actually being empathetic to someone else lets that person be empathetic to you. Right like empathy, because empathy, if I attune to you and I care about what you need in the right relationships, you should get that back right. That's actually like where you actually meet and connect yeah so people could have the space for both feelings.

Speaker 2: 56:37

That makes sense, or am I just blabbering?

Speaker 1: 56:38

no, it makes total sense. I was thinking. My favorite, one of my favorite parts about being with jason is that when I am a bitch to him, I feel safe enough to take some time myself and and say, okay, why was I just a bitch to Jason? You know what? I think it's because I interpreted what he said in this way and that's probably not the correct way, and I think I wanted to grab a little bit of power over him and like make him sorry that he said that thing, even though it wasn't very fair. And then I feel safe enough to go trot over to Jason and say, hey, the reason I was a bitch to you just then was because I interpreted what you said in a specific way wasn't really a fair interpretation. And then what I wanted to do was say something that would hurt. Like I'm able to basically lay out what happened in my head because I know that he's not going to use that and weaponize it against me and that he will allow himself to take that, but also then meet my need right. So like I can meet his need of maybe apologizing that I was a bitch, while also getting my own need met, that I need reassurance, or whatever the fuck started the whole thing in the first place. I need reassurance, or whatever the fuck started the whole thing in the first place. So when you can, yeah, see things as not a zero-sum game, as, like, I can attend to you and in attending to you actually there would probably be more space for than you to attend to me then you're gonna wind up with a better product. And so I think that a lot of people who are extremely defended see admitting wrong or catering to another person as lowering themselves in power and losing control. That's why I brought up that example With my last relationship.

Speaker 1: 58:36

I don't think that he would have ever been able to admit to me what was really going on in his head, because he would be afraid that that would weaken himself. It was such a battlefield every time we were trying to get needs met, because there was such a currying for power and control. Yeah, and when you can allow yourself to actually be head bowed a little bit, you know like, oh, your needs are important. Right now, I did something wrong. I can actually, you know, come to you and ask you for forgiveness, or like, tell you that I'm a human being who's fallible and makes mistakes and doesn't get it right all the time, that's actually much more powerful. It's a sign of healthy self-esteem, it's a it's a sign of healthy relationship building.

Speaker 1: 59:26

So I guess I would maybe examine, like, if you feel like you need to maintain power in a disagreement over forming connection, what is the threat of being less powerful in that interaction? Sometimes there's a real fucking threat, you know, because sometimes, if you, if you know that if you lose power, the other person will manipulate that, then I also wouldn't want to lose any power, but that's not always the case. And then opposite action. I would just also think you know, like, if you cannot be happy for somebody else's success, just fake it in a really big way. Buy the gifts, do the thoughtful thing, even if you're in conversation and this is awkward at first like, create a ratio in your head of how many questions you need to ask them versus how many you're being asked, and just stick to that ratio yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:00:24

I like that opposite action to envy, which is to promote that other other people like lift other people up and you were stuck. You will start to rewire your brain from a dopamine head or like safety of I gotta win, right, I gotta win and that's the way I get love. That's why no right collaborate, lift everyone else up. We're a team and we're not. It's not like a race, yeah so I really like connection over ego, like that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:55

I think that's the theme of yeah, one of my favorite dbt principles is a mindfulness principle of effectiveness do what is going to get you towards your goal, not what is going to make you feel more powerful. Like it. I said to your friend, I said to our friend once we were arguing about like, should he have paid the bill for the girl? And I was like of course you should have. And he was like, no, for these reasons. And I was like, do you want to be right or do you want to get laid? And that is that we've heard this like do you want to be right or do you x? Like, yeah, that is a good principle to use.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

Is your behavior going to result in you being quote-unquote right or is it going to result in you getting more connection and love? Um, and that doesn't always mean surrender and uh, accept all blame, like that's the other end. Sometimes that also won't give you more love, because you're degrading your own self-respect and esteem. So it's a difficult dance and this is why I would suggest, like, go to therapy if you're struggling with this, because you have all these different psychosocial needs to balance. But if the true goal is connection and intimacy, then power and control cannot be an equal goal and if you don't want to go to therapy, join.

Speaker 1: 1:02:22

Cool of mind, of course, but I think cool of mind and therapy can work in conjunction. Yeah, definitely, yeah, um, I would never be promoting something that would result in people not seeking therapy. Kippy, as you know, that would be at odds with the way that we see our perfect self, yeah. So I think that's all for me. Do you have anything to add?

Speaker 2: 1:02:53

No, so I think that's all for me. Do you have anything to add? No, I, uh, I could repeat that if you want to tell us about your narcissistic parent journey uh, texas, directly, it's like in the show notes. You could just click on like send a text um, join cool mind for more tips and skills and handholding through changing your attachment patterns and, you know, healing from narcissistic abuse. And what was the last one? Oh yeah, um, I'm gonna put the uh narcissism scale on our show notes so if you're wondering how narcissistic is your mom really, you could check it out and you could get a little quiz and see how damaged you really are.

Speaker 1: 1:03:36

Oh well, if you would like to be our narcissistic supply, please give us a five-star rating on Spotify.

Speaker 1: 1:03:42

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