Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. We share insights from science, clinical practice and our personal lives to help you support friends and family with mental or emotional problems. I'm your host, jacqueline Trumbull, a former bachelor contestant during clinical psychology PhD candidate at Duke University, and this is my co-host, dr Kibbe McMahon.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:25

Hi, I'm Dr Kibby clinical psychologist and co-founder of KulaMind, the official community for this podcast. Check out our website K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom to get support navigating the ups and downs of your most emotionally challenging relationships.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:38

And if you want to share your story or questions with us for future episodes, tap the link in your show notes to text us or email us at littlehelpforourfriends at gmailcom. We hope you love the podcast. Hey Little Helpers, Welcome back yet again. And to those of you watching us on YouTube, welcome. This is very exciting that you can see our faces.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:03

So weird, so not used to being like on camera, but yeah, um. So today I think we've got a pretty fun one for you all. We're going to be talking about friends with benefits, a rather polarizing topic. Um, looking into the research, I do have a bit of a question about definitions like is the research truly defining this? Are there some maybe limitations to how it's being measured? It's a little bit difficult to peel apart from, like situationships or hookups or casual sex. So we'll probably kind of talk about the whole bucket of those topics, but with a special focus on friends with benefits. But first I'll kick it over to you, kibbe, to talk about how you can help us with relationship dynamics and maybe complicated relationships with Coolamind.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:59

Yeah, made Kulamind for you guys really.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:02

So KulaMind is a platform and community that teaches people all these strategies that we've been talking about on the pod Strategies for breaking toxic dynamics and really difficult relationships with people with personality disorders or other kinds of serious mental illness, like addiction and teach us like really evidence-based skills for how to heal for emotional abuse, communicate better, learn how to find healthier relationships, how to deepen your connections with people, how to break free of all the kind of different neuroses and core beliefs that we have swirling around our heads that get in the way of us having a happy life and good relationships swirling around our heads that get in the way of us having a happy life and good relationships.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:50

So we do that and KulaMind through one-on-one coaching and community support. We'll do webinars and also I really wanted Cool Mind to be a program that could be accessible from anywhere. So if you are struggling, you can text your coach and someone will walk you through these evidence-based skills so you don't have to figure that out on your own. You know when you're feeling like the most scared and alone. So if you want to check it out Kulamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom I'll put the link in the show notes for you to check it out. But also, if you have any questions, there is a place in the show notes where you could click like send uh, kibby and jacqueline a text so you could ask us directly even just to chat and say hi.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 3:33

Yeah, I remember in my last relationship just constantly like reaching out to you or my mom or other people, being like how do I talk to this man? What am I like communicating that's making him react this way and and it would have been nice to, instead of burning out my friends and family, to have some professional help me with these conversations.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 3:50

So, yeah, that's the idea, kind of like a therapist in your pocket, because friends can be helpful but sometimes like they're biased. Right, they have their opinions, they have their feelings about it, they get tired. They might not know the you know the actual interventions or strategies that can help you through something like that. So that's why we wanted to make Cool Minds, so to help people in a real way.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 4:15

Awesome. Well, back to our topic at hand friends with benefits. Is this what comes to mind for you, kibbe, when you hear friends with benefits, like do you have immediate judgments about it?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:27

Well, when you were just saying the different kinds of friends with benefits, I really didn't know that at this point because I'm so old, but I don't know the difference between a situationship and a friends with benefits and casual hookups. I, I don't know like I I think that I, um, I've, I have like relatively less dating experience that I'd feel like I jump from relationship to relationship and I've only had a few friends with benefits situations. But what? My question is like what? What are those? What's the difference between a friends with benefits situation? Ship.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:04

Yeah, so I'm OK. Again, I don't think the research does like the most amazing job differentiating these, but what I would say is that a friend with benefits is somebody who you have already demonstrated like, you've already created a friendship with. You already have some level of intimacy and trust with that person, and then you add in a friendship with. You already have some level of intimacy and trust with that person, and then you add in a sexual component. The kind of idea behind it is you're getting casual sex, but with somebody that you trust and know, versus like casually hooking up. It might mean you know you meet a stranger in a bar, you hook up, you don't know if you'll ever see them again, and it goes from there.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:49

Situationship is I mean, I did not see like a formal definition for situationship because I was specifically looking at friends with benefits research, but I would kind of define it as, like you know, you have started dating somebody but it hasn't become defined and it's unclear if it will become defined. But it's not like you. Just it's not like you specifically started out as friends and kind of came to this agreement to have sex. So, like you know, I've had many situationships where I was dating somebody and one of us didn't want commitment, but that wasn't explicitly stated to the other person, and so we found ourselves in like a dating situation where maybe there was sex, maybe there wasn't, but both of us, or at least one of us, is probably confused okay, so wait.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 6:48

Friends with benefits. But can't friends with benefits become a situationship if one one person actually wants to date? I think this is one of the about the how, their expectations and how committed you are and knowing, like, what the level of commitment is yeah, I mean, let's see if google scholar has an actual definition of a situationship.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:13

Um, so this is from 2024, a romantic trajectory that has received little attention. Literature situationships, which is a colloquial term, used to describe a complex relationship situation.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:28

Okay, that's big, yeah, so you could be friend. You could have a casual hookup or be friends first, then start to have sex and then, if somebody catches feelings, then it's a situationship yeah, well, maybe so.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:44

Another one says, however, situationships may be experiences of romantic love without increases in commitment, because, I mean, it's the lack of commitment that really defines the situationship, otherwise it'd be called a relationship what does commitment mean?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:56

does that mean exclusivity, or does that mean like?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 8:01

yeah, I mean look this out as like research. Um, yeah, I mean I, you know, like I saw, I saw one research paper that was it was talking about friends with benefits, but it was basically asking people like to to sort of define their last sexual experience like, was it casual, was it in a committed relationship? And that to me does not seem like a friends with benefits situation. I saw other research papers that were more defined, but you know, I think it's.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 8:33

There are a lot of considerations when we think about friends with benefits, like, is this just a friend that you hook up with a few times and when you're drunk, and that's kind of fun? Friend that you hook up with a few times and when you're drunk, and that's kind of fun? Is this an extremely close friend who you are having sex with regularly over a long period of time? Is this an acquaintance who you basically know but like, if you lost the friendship it wouldn't be that big of a deal. You know, I mean it's just, it's a really difficult phenomenon to define, and so you know there were findings, and I's a really difficult phenomenon to define, and so you know there were findings and I'll talk about them because they're interesting but at the same time I think they should be taken with a grain of salt and probably what we'll do in this podcast a little bit is talk about the dynamics that probably help her make friends with benefits situations a little bit more complicated just from our psychological perspective.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:28

Makes sense. Yeah, I'm just trying to think about the friends with benefits or situationships I've been in. They all blend together.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 9:38

so I guess in my mind I mean, did you ever have a situation where you had a friend like a defined friend and the two of you decided to have uncommitted casual sex together for an indefinite period of time?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:53

I think so. I think the times that I've done that I've hooked up with a friend by the way, I'm mostly dated friends, right so I actually like I don't don't have to think different, but um, and it it did vary about like which one was more into the relationship, more like wanted it to be a committed thing. But yeah, I haven't, I haven't said like okay, we are just having sex with no commitment.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:18

I've only had maybe one that was like we have sex regularly but we're clearly not in a relationship but, eventually I realized that he did like me and so we did end up dating, even though I didn't want to.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 10:32

And then I've had many situations where we're just hooking up and I I really wanted a commitment and they were like you know, well, one of the questions is there are some there's there's research that's looking at a gender breakdown, which is sort of an obvious thing to do because, traditionally speaking, women are supposed to be more commitment oriented. They're trying to lock in someone who will stick by their side and then men are spreading their seed. That's sort of an evolutionary perspective that is reductionist. But the question is why do people get into these relationships?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:07

And one finding found that there was kind of a moderating effect of relationship thoughtfulness and alcohol use. So basically. So basically in general, like the more you drink, the more especially women are likely to get into a friends with benefits situation. But the moderating effect is how thoughtful you are and intentional you are about your relationships. So if you are somebody who is intentionally looking for a specific kind of relationship, you are less likely to enter into a friends with benefits situation, no matter how much you drink, which makes sense, I'm going to say.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:56

The overall evidence that I found was that friends with benefits confer more positive results than negative, which was surprising to me, and I think it's surprising to the researchers, because you can see, in these research papers, they're all like, they're all trying to find the pitfalls. They're all like well, what about what about this thing? What about the like? What if you ruin the friendship? What if? What about this thing? What about that Like? What if you ruin the friendship? What if you know? So it's all like, because I think there's some, there's just an expectation that this isn't going to go well, which I understand, because I also hear friends with benefits and I'm like, yeah, that's not going to go well.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 12:41

And so to hear that maybe it does, I'm taking with a grain of salt because of how these things are defined and measured and everything like that. But I also don't want to let my own bias and judgment tell me that oh well, this can't be right. These have got to be bad for you, because you know there are merits. But right off the bat, hearing that mostly women are more likely to get into this because of alcohol use, that's not like a great sign. You know. I mean, it's that's. It's how a lot of relationships start.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 13:13

But if you're continuing in on them because you're drinking a lot, it's like, eh, there's another kind of aspect of it where it's like women are more likely to have casual sex than men because they're hoping for a committed relationship to come out of it. This is very familiar to me in my personal experience and it's not. I mean the thinking isn't like if I, if I fuck this dude at the bar, then maybe he'll like want a relationship with me. It's more, we've been on a few dates and there's this expectation and there's pressure and it's like I don't know, it seems like if this is going to go anywhere, then this is the next natural step.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 14:08

Are you saying you haven't had a lot of one night stands? Have you had a lot of like hookups, where you just meet them and go home with them?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 14:15

Yeah, I love one night stands. I mean I used to, but there was no, there was no. I never wanted to see any of those people again. That was the whole point of it for me. So this is the thing, like I feel like I'm the exact wrong market for a friends with benefits situation, but I am the right market for casual sex, so I don't have any problem with casual sex. I mean, I shouldn't say I have no problem with it because I think a lot of times it's done very badly and it's approached very badly. But I've never dated a friend. I'm not attracted to my friends Like I don't. The idea of just having like sex with a friend is completely unappealing to me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 14:58

So you've never had a friends with benefits situation. It's only been like.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 15:03

I've had. I've had, I would say, more like situationships that were uncomplicated, so like that's the thing, finding them as uncomfortable. I've certainly had complicated situationships, but I've also had uncomplicated situations which I would define as like guys who we were never friends to start out with. We started off in a romantic sphere and then, because our life took us in different directions or because there was something about them that I explicitly did not want to commit to, I could still hook up with them and have a good time. But I mean, I'm thinking specifically like somebody I dated in Charleston when I was there. Neither of us were gunning for commitment, you know, like I had just, I was still kind of hurting from being in love with someone else and you know, he and I dated like very regularly and we had an intimate relationship but there was no exclusivity and I didn't really care. And then for years after that, when I would visit Charleston, I would go out with him and we would hook up and that felt totally fine.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:19

I had another situation like that, um, when I visited my, my sister, one of her friends I would like hook with. But there were a few things that made this feel okay. I mean one like, yeah, I had. No, I didn't think that with either guy we had any long term potentiality. And there was some. There was something about each of them that I was just like no, this isn't something I'm looking for in the long term. It's like, no, this isn't something I'm looking for in the long term. We lived in different. I mean, with the first guy, we did live in Charleston concomitantly for a little while, but mostly like we didn't. We lived in different places. Even when I was in Charleston, I didn't want to meet a guy in Charleston to date, seriously because I wanted to move to New York. So there was just something about it that made the commitment unattractive to me as well, and it never felt like other. How do I put this?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:14

Other forces really intervened, like what I think is the inherently bad idea about friends with benefits is that you have a friend, so you, you start with something that you can destroy, a friendship that's valuable to you theoretically, um, and then you know and within a friendship there's already like you treat each other differently than you treat strangers. Um, you know, there there's kindness, there there's reciprocation, there, there's something valuable there, and then you add in a sexual element For an indefinite period of time. There's a lot of intimacy there. There's a friendship intimacy and there's a sexual intimacy. Lot of intimacy there. There's a friendship intimacy and there's a sexual intimacy.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:08

And why would you have gotten into that intimacy and risked the friendship if there wasn't something kind of inherently like that you like value over and above the friendship. I don't know, it's hard to explain, like if you're willing to risk the friendship for sex and it seems you are drawn to that person for something other than what the friendship gives you, so you're probably at the very least attracted to them, right? So if you have a friend, it means you have an intimate bond, but you're also attracted to them. That feels that is hard to sustain over a long period of time in your situationships did.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:49

Were there any ones that you felt like you got along with as like, became friends, and then still identified qualities about them that you didn't want to commit to? You know what I mean. Like you're, you're saying that you have the friendship plus the sexual intimacy. Should be like, should lead to some kind of relationship. But what if it's like well, we just get along, we're friends, we hang out, we enjoy each other's company and we have sex, but we don't want to date.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 19:20

Yeah, I guess I just feel like the friendship would have to be fairly casual. Then I like, with the situation, with the situations I've had, we did not have a friendship first. There wasn't anything to risk and we didn't have that. I was also treated like I was dating them. I think that's important too. Like I'm not somebody who can just have a friendship and like eat pizza with the guys and drink beer and then when one of them is like ready to have sex, he's like hey, jacklyn, you want to come to the bedroom? Like that's just not something that I could do.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 19:53

So the situations I had, it was like I'd come to Charleston, he'd take me to dinner or we'd go to a party. I was his date. You know it was an explicitly like romantic situation the whole time, even if we weren't either of us really looking for commitment. But it's not like we had some like trust and intimacy and friendship that really superseded that. So that's what's hard for me to understand. I guess I can definitely understand falling for your friend and deciding like maybe we should give this a try, but just having, maybe I just don't like, maybe I just don't value sex enough.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:46

Yeah, I think it's like the opposite for me, because maybe it's just the way that we orient to men, or orient to other people like you date more, like you go out on dates. You orient to people in a dating context. Even if I were like technically on a date, I orient myself towards people like friends. So even if it's like if I have, if there's romantic feelings or whatever, we're not explicitly on a date, we're like hanging out as friends and maybe you'll turn to something more. So my, like, all my you know relationships have been friends with benefits, but do you?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:08

feel, oh, they've been friends, and then you friends, and then you, and then you started hooking up, and then you, but this is like what, what is the stage in the beginning that got that connected you to like for you you probably have dated more, so you started out as like a romantic situation. I've had more like just casual friends that have turned right, but that's, I don't date right, I don't go out on dates. So anyone I've gotten to know that's new has been like friend first, you know.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 21:36

But when you started hooking up were you? Did you do that with an intention to see where it goes, or was it purely with the intention to remain uncommitted and casual? There's a couple people that it was like uncommitted.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:51

But actually most of my boyfriends have started out that way, most of, except for except for alex, my current husband, right, I think most of my relationships have been. I've gotten out of a relationship, we, this is so fun or not fun, kind of lonely. And then I hook up with a friend or someone that I know and I'm like ah, this is my chance to have like like I I'm, I don't like, um, uh, like the, the one night stands, because I don't feel attracted to people that I don't have some kind of dynamic with, like, even if they're like handsome, I don't want to have sex with them until I kind of know them and have some sort of like connection there. So it's like OK, I know that there's a connection and we hook up and then suddenly it turns into more. So we're just bad at situationships, I just really good at them.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 22:45

You know, ladder theory. Ladder theory was this theory that some dude in 2005 wrote or maybe it was 1995, wrote in like microsoft paint, where women have two ladders the friend's ladder and the real ladder. That very much describes me and like a lot of guys like guys don't when they're on the friend's ladder ladder.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 23:04

So basically the theory is men have only one ladder and all women are on the ladder except girls who are wolf ugly. So this isn't a very offensive theory, by the way, like it's hilarious if you don't get offended easily or if you're not very politically, but it's like clearly this guy was angry with with women when he wrote um so basically, like all like normal looking girls are on one ladder for men and they're they're just at different points on the ladder.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 23:31

You know, there's the women that they're like explicitly trying to have sex with date, whatever, and then there are just like friends or, you know, there's like other women who they would have sex with but they're just maybe not like actively pursuing, whereas women have two ladders, the friend's ladder and the real ladder, and men never know which ladder they're on.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 23:50

I guess some men on the real ladder know, because women are like pursuing them or having sex with them. But the idea is that men will often try to jump from the friend's ladder onto the real ladder. The real ladder is men that women are willing to have sex with and then they'll get kicked into and fall into the abyss. So, basically, like, men who are really on the friend's ladder will try to do all these things for women, thinking that this is, thinking that this is going to get them onto the real ladder, and then women have absolutely no intention of ever putting them on the real ladder, ever having sex with them, and so as soon as the man then makes them like a sexual or romantic move, they get kicked off both ladders and just fall into the abyss. That's very much me. I definitely have a friend's ladder and a real ladder and ladder jumping is very difficult.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 24:38

That's funny. I mean, I would have said this is similar thing, except my husband and I have been best friends for 18 years with absolutely no funny business, like super platonic. He was my wedding officiant and my last wedding yeah, we've been friends with each other's partners and really there was like like no, I hope this doesn't hurt his feelings when he listens to it but there's no feelings and then suddenly like we're married with a kid. So I don't know how. Yeah, I don't. I don't see the locked in the friend zone thing. I don't really understand yeah, my daughter is more like a cliff.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:22

I don't know my husband has married you twice.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:24

Kibby he married you once to joe and then once to himself yeah, no, it's funny because I have guys who will spend money on me or take me out or something, and Jason will be like Jacqueline, they're trying to get with you, they're waiting for me to make a mistake. I get that, but they're on the bad ladder. They're not on the real ladder, so it doesn't matter what they ladder, they're not on the real ladder, so it doesn't matter what they do. They're not on the correct ladder, so you're safe.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 25:57

But do you make that clear to them, like if they're taking you out to something and you're like, okay, this guy's friend zoning me, but he's just taking me out, but he still thinks he's climbing that ladder. Are you clear? Or are you still like he, he, maybe?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 26:14

uh, I don't have a conversation about the ladder theory with them, ah, but I do so no I mean these days I'm like I have a boyfriend let me talk excessively about Successively to you. Yeah, I mean I'll talk about. I feel like I will give sort of markers of disinterest. But If they want to delude themselves, they're welcome to.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:42

It's fine. What has situationships given you Like? What do you? What did you like or not like?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 26:51

about them. Well, most of my situationships have been situations where I wanted them to wind up in a relationship. So in a sense they gave me nothing because they didn't pan out. None of them panned out. No, no, not well, no, eric, my first mega narcissist guy, I mean, he panned out for about a month and then he unpanned and then, you know, that was just like a. That was a complicated relationship which was actually technically very simple, but I didn't understand that, uh, it was simple and that he was never going to take me seriously, even if he said, said he was and he was cheating you know, the whole time. But that's our.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 27:36

And I guess in college I had a situationship that did pan out, but I, after Eric, I very much was like if I could sniff that it was a situationship, I was out quickly. So I had a couple of situations that maybe lasted like a month or two, but then I'd be like as soon as there was, you know, good evidence that this wasn't, that he wasn't serious, I cut and ran. There was one where I dated a guy in Hawaii for six months. That was the longest situation ship, but that's because he showed a lot of interest. He was very consistent. We traveled to meet each other and he had a good reason for not wanting to be in a committed relationship, which was that he lived in Hawaii. And then when I could tell, oh wait, this really for real isn't going anywhere, then I cut it In terms of the ones where it was out of tone, like the Charleston guy.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:34

It was just like safe, fun something to do on a Friday night. You know, it was like fun seeing him, it was fun being taken out, but the sex is never. That's never the reward for me, because sex is very it's, it's's, um, it's like saying that sex isn't, it's, it's in very easy supply, like I can go out and get sex wherever. So like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like risk things for sex. Really I'm not gonna like, oh my god, sorry, hi, youtube, here's my cat. Um, yeah, I'm usually in it for the dates being treated special, having a fun, dynamic connection, and then maybe the sex is fun because it's like more novel or it doesn't really matter, or I'm in it for a relationship just saying, yeah, I.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:36

I guess I'm the opposite of the sense that there's. There have been situationships where I'm in it just for the sex and that was like the main part. Like there's one person that we were just set up because I had just gotten out of my relationship and I wanted just like a like cheer me up, hook up. My friend was like my friend is slutty. He's a slutty guy, you know, and he's supposed to be good in bed. So I like, as soon as we hung out, we just I was like, well, basically, let's just hook up. I was like, give me a massage, or so I forgot, I think. I just like went right and uh, because I didn't care, and that just became like a purely sexual relationship. I don't like we became friends and eventually we dated, even though, like I probably shouldn't have, but that was like a long-standing, even like I I stopped it when I got into a relationship and then got back into it. It's like a second rebound and it was purely for the sex and I I like a really what was it? Was it a situationship? Because I don't think either of us wanted the commitment, but it was like we were together just for the sex and what was cool about that was I'm realizing now I mean, I'm just like working through a bunch of stuff now anyway about like being myself and not working and performing for a relationship, like not being useful for a relationship.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:07

So I'm learning how to be myself in intimacy for relationships. So I'm learning how to like be myself in an intimacy and with that area, like since there was no other expectation or commitment, I could fully like perform, like, perform sexually. So I was a, the whole connection was sexual intimacy. So it was really like I put thought into it. It was more exploratory. We would do different stuff. I would experiment with different things. I would kind of experiment with a different like sexual persona with him. Like I was more like dominant or submissive, you know, like I would explore the different roles and like my sexual side, but then as friends or dating, dating it was really sparse, like I just we just didn't. We like hung out and had a good time, but like I didn't connect with him romantically. That's terrible.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:01

He became my boyfriend what that makes sense to me. I would not be able to access that over the long term. I don't think and that has everything to do with, I don't know, just me. Stuff Like that's the.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:16

What you said is basically why I liked one night stands. Now, I didn't have very many of them and I think if I had, I actually would have probably ruined it. But I think when I had a one night stand, it wasn't about the sex, it was about the freedom that not knowing the person and doing something taboo gave me. And, yeah, I would be able to inhabit a different part of myself and not care and be more performative or selfish or whatever the case may be, and I liked that. So I suppose, if someone's able to access that in a friends with benefits situation, great. But it's just hard. It's hard for me to connect with that, because a friend isn't a stranger um, who actually does have expectations of who you are and oh interesting those you need a certain context and um knows your people, your other people, you know, like me.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:11

that would just be like the. It would just be like boring, routine sex without any of the seduction elements, like I'm all about seduction, that's, that's why I'll have sex.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:24

It's like what seduces you the most? What does seduction look like for you?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:30

What does seduction look like for you? Somebody treating me like I'm special, somebody making me feel hot, sexy, me feeling like I'm getting away with something might be part of it. Getting away with what? Getting away with what? Well, I mean getting away with like something that other people can't get away with. Like somebody spending an inordinate amount of money on me, or a one night stand where it's like, yeah, I'm doing this, even though it's everything you know that my mother didn't teach me. It's like it goes against things.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 34:06

You know, yeah, I just think a friend would cancel out all of that. I'd be like I'm not special. We're specifically friends. You treat me like one of the guys all the other times. That's the point. Otherwise it would be a situationship We'd be dating. There'd be some sort of romantic element. So the only thing that makes me special is that, like I'm somebody you have sex with Well, I'm just on the ladder Right, like you're probably willing to have sex with a bunch of different women. That's not like sex doesn't make me feel special at all. Sex is. It's kind of the opposite actually.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:47

Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 34:47

If a man wants me for sex, I'm like, yeah, you don't actually care about who I am at all. So a friend who does care about who I am, but not enough to commit to me but just to have sex with me feels like I would be undervalued. Yeah, that's anti-semi.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 35:03

As we're talking about that, like I've been confused up until now. I mean, I'm still kind of confused, but I think what we're actually because I'm like that a friends with benefits situation, shit, what is what is? This is casual sex, but I think what's like? What if? What happens if you isolate the different parts of a romantic connection with someone. Right like when, when, in an ideal world, when you're partnered with someone, you get the exclusivity or expectations that they will share a life with you or do or show up in certain ways for you reliably. You get the I like to hang out with them, friendship and I respect them and I joined the company. And then there's like the sexual chemistry, and then what we're talking about is like all these different relationships that might have one or two pieces, but not all of them.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 35:53

Well, the amazing thing is that you've just zeroed in on Sternberg's triangular theory of love which I think we talked about on the podcast, but like years ago, so this is exactly a theory. I have such a bad memory so this is so exciting to review. I hold concepts because I'm like tell me more.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 36:10

What's that? No, it's funny because it's a theory that's actually used to study friends with benefits and the idea is that there's like these three parts of a relationship that make up the triangle there's passion, intimacy and trust. Let me make sure that's true. Yeah, okay, so Sternberg's triangular theory of love is that there are basically three prongs of relationship it's intimacy, passion and commitment, and that's basically exactly what you just described. The commitment is like I'm committing to doing this with you. We've got exclusivity, like you are my priority, something like that.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 36:51

Passion is mostly referring to like sex and attraction, and then intimacy is more just about like trust, friendship, etc. And people hypotheses, hypothesis that like right, that friends with benefits would be high on both passion and intimacy and then low on commitment, and what they actually found was that it was it was like moderately high on intimacy and not high on passion or commitment. So there wasn't actually that much of a difference between friends with benefits and friends like if. Looking at this theory, so they were truly just friends with benefits. Now, like OK, if you're a woman, what is in this for you if you don't have even like elevated levels of passion with this person? And I guess it's so.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 37:40

To me that's like OK, then you are just in it for the sex. I guess, and like the person, the only thing that makes you want to do this is the fact that you trust this person and you don't have to worry about them like murdering you in an alley, and that you know that makes some sense. It doesn't. I'm again. I'm not the right market for it. So it's like I don't judge other people but I don't get it personally. That's like what I'm anti-interested in. I'd rather the risk of being murdered in an alley. That makes it more like interesting and novel and exciting to me. I mean, I'm I'm sort of joking, but also not really Part of what makes sex interesting to me is that I'm trusting somebody, that yeah, yeah, part of what makes casual sex interesting.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 38:18

I'm trusting somebody who maybe doesn't deserve it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 38:22

Well, now I'm wondering. I remember there's Esther Perel's Mating, a Captivity book, and all of what Esther Perel talks about with passion and intimacy and trust are sometimes like, um, they conflict. Because, like passion and desire is a little bit like you're, you have to chase, you're, there's a distance, there's like that, like motivation and drive, whereas, like in these friendships and and committed relationships, there's that, that predictability, safety and trust that might open up different parts of sex but doesn't open up that part of like ooh, I got to wear something beautiful, like I mean literally I could fart in front of my husband and we still have sex later that day. I mean like, I don't, I think the passion, I completely kill the passion, but I still think it still happens. Do you fart in front of your husband completely?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:14

kill the passion, but it still. I think it still happens. Well, uh no, we do not do that and we never will. Oh my god.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:18

So this is how you keep the passion alive yeah, no, it actually reminds me because there are two camps there's the Esther Perel camp and there's the John Gottman camp, and they probably have more overlap than we think. But I hear those two camps criticizing each other a lot and the Esther Esther Perel camp is more about like you have to maintain some level of intimacy in order for or sorry, some level of mystery, for desire to exist, and one of the reasons people stray is because there is no mystery anymore. The John Gottman camp is like no, you don't need mystery, you know sexual like, awakening and attachment, etc. It comes from true intimacy. Um, and I'm more that's the Perel camp. You know, like I think some sexual awakening or whatever comes from intimacy.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:08

But Jason and I are very much like we don't do anything gross in front of each other, we don't tell each other about gross things. We still look hot, like we go on dates, we dress up. I mean I've done things to my body to make it look ideal, which we'll talk about next episode. You know he's always working out, he's like trying to keep himself super hot. It's a big, big, big part of our relationship to maintain like sexiness, um and so again. So that just plays into like I'm not the right market for a friend with benefits, because a friend isn't going to care enough to do anything like that for me. And if they are, then are we really friends? Are we really just friends?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:52

so maybe friends with benefits are more the gotman. Maybe they'd be more pulled into like a gotman style relationship dynamic it's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 41:00

So I'm trying to think am I one of the other? I guess? Okay, so we're saying gotman, is that gotman saying that sexual connection and awakening happens in like really trusting relationships where you have that intimacy and respect and almost kind of like stability, and Esperal's like no, you need that little mystery in the chase, in the distance, to feel like that sexual connection. I feel like those are different forms of sex for me because I can see both sides. I was more like of a sexual being in my situationships, especially the ones so I was really obsessed with situationships to the point where I realized I was emotionally unavailable because I was chasing these people who were slightly like they would be hooking up regularly, but they'd be slightly like they would. We'd be hooking up regularly, but they'd be slightly like out of reach, they didn't want it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 41:56

Like my first husband we dated for we hooked up exclusively for about a year and it took about a year for him to actually call me his girlfriend and I was like, obsessed and infatuated with like why isn't he attaching? Why, you know? And now I realize it was like. I was always like, oh well, what would have been if we're in a committed relationship? And I realized that he's just like that. Right, it wasn't like the situation ship, it was him anyway. So just keep that in mind where you're like oh, if only we committed it'll be different, like sometimes not yeah but I was a certain kind of like sexual person.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:35

In those sexual dynamics I was like performative and what that looks like is like experimenting with different positions. I'd wear things. I probably put on a persona. I was like confident and whatever right, like I was doing the sex.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:51

Yeah, right, like I was doing the sex, yeah, but, but yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I agreed that actually like something as vulnerable as an orgasm, it does make sense that that can come more easily in a trusting relationship. Um, but also that I agree with you that there's a there's a different kind of freedom, a different kind of performing, like try new things with somebody that maybe you're never going to see again. I get caught in context, you know, like if Jason and I were going to try something new and I can see, on the one hand, how trust and intimacy would allow that to happen. New and I can see, on the one hand, how trust and intimacy would allow that to happen, but I can also see, on another hand, where I'm like you know me as a particular kind of version of myself and it feels strange to open up a different kind of version of myself like it would.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:44

It would be incongruent. There'd be like dissonance between them, and when you are just meeting somebody, when it's casual, new, whatever, like they don't have any preconceived notions of who you are. Um, yeah, so wait.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:00

So why do you? Why did you get into any situationships if, if sex is not valuable to you outside of possible commitment?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:12

It's not that it wasn't valuable, because seduction was valuable to me. Oh, okay, okay. And if the seduction was good enough, then the sex would be good enough.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:22

Okay, so you still wanted the desire. I see, okay.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:25

Yeah, or I was in a situation because I wanted commitment and I just didn't know yet that the other guy didn't Got it Got it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:34

Got, just didn't know yet that the other guy didn't Got it, got it, got it, yeah. So I mean, I do think that I think that both people need to watch out in a friends with benefits situation Like, ok, there's, there's another paper that was talking about like one thing that can happen is that the reason somebody is willing to be in a friends with benefits situation is because there is something incompatible about them and that other person. There is something that they do not want to carry into forever about that other person, which is what I said in the situations that it worked for me. Well, the other person might not know that or they might not feel the same way, so that's complicated, right. It's kind of like why are we doing this?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 45:18

Now, when I think about when this does work, polyamorous communities seem to be able to make this work a bit better, but what usually is significant about polyamorous people is that they communicate very well, or at least that's the idea they're supposed to. This one paper looked at like are people in friends with benefits relationships actually communicating about their relationship? And the theory was like maybe this is why they, maybe this is why they work, where we find that there's not bad outcomes Because, since there's an existing friendship, there's existing trust and intimacy and therefore they're able to talk about their situation. But the paper found that, no, they are not talking.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 45:56

They're not and it's so hard for me to see how this is not a downfall. Like, how do two people decide to indefinitely have sex with each other without commitment? There's something happening in each of them to make that happen, and it seems like the things that could be happening are one I'm doing this in the hopes of a future relationship. Two, there is something essentially unattractive about this person as a permanent partner that I will not be tempted, um, or like. Three, maybe the situation is safe enough, like what I was saying, where it was like long distance. It just sort of precluded you know anything more serious on both sides, that there's no chance.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:42

Yeah, but how do you?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 46:44

clarity that that is the case on both sides. If you don't talk about your relationship, and so the the probability of being on two different pages is just so incredibly high. Yeah, yeah. And then the reason that people won't stay in is just because there's like they believe that there are no other choices. There's like a dearth of dating options, and that's not a particularly good reason to stick with a relationship either. So I know I interrupted you, go ahead.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:10

No, it's just interesting when people go. I've heard some guys recently say well, I was clear that I don't want a relationship. And now we're hooking up and I'm dating other people and they're getting upset or they're catching feelings right Like. But I made it really clear I don't want to date them, but we keep hooking up and then there's a question of like. Whose fault is it, like, if they keep going and that other person keeps getting hurt? Is it the person who's getting hurt that they just have like realistic expectations, or is it the person who says I don't want a relationship but I keep engaging in the sexual relationship, knowing that it's creating this like false hope?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:54

yeah, that's such a good I don't know, like I don't know, the answer to that, although I think what you're saying about the communication is key, because if I were to look back on times that I've been in that situation where the situationships where, like with my ex-husband, where we were hooking up, he was like, no, I can't commit, I'm gonna move back to my home after college, blah, blah, blah.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 48:15

And.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:16

I was like, okay, I'm fine with that. And then I really wasn't. I was like upset. I think that I was not willing to be more honest with what I wanted, right. Because if it's really, I kept having hope of like, if we just keep hooking up and acting like a couple, we'd like he would realize that we're a couple Right, like he'd he'd open his eyes and be like, oh wait, all the thing that Kid B wants is already happening. So I just have to admit to the reality. But that's just so tricky because I also know that I was probably keeping my feelings like bottled up until I like lashed out and got upset sometimes when I was drunk, because I knew that if I were to say, hey, I'm really uncomfortable with not having this commitment, but continuing this way, I would risk it, I would lose it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 49:08

So I kept myself in the race by Classic situation yeah, yeah, so I kept myself in the race. By classic situation, yeah yeah, I mean I, because you had an existing friendship. You could call it a friends with benefits situation but that's right, yeah, no, I think that's.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 49:21

I think that's such a good point is that it's another communication challenge and it's it is hard to tell, because if a guy says clearly what his expectations are, you can't then expect him to be like no, I'm not going to have sex with you, even though you're saying it's fine and you're on the same page. On the other hand, we should be able to have enough basic empathy to be able to make decisions around. What we are seeing plainly with our own eyes is going on with another person. So if another person says it's okay, don't worry about it, let's keep having sex, but they're hurting or like pain, they're crying every time, they're drunk, they're railing against you, whatever. Then like, I don't know, maybe that is a time to say, look, I'm out. You know, this isn't, we're not on the same page's tough, because whose agency? Like? Are you then taking away the agency of the other person? Or are you making a compassionate decision to say like, look, this is. You know, this isn't what we're in. Um, so I don't know.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:25

But I do think a lot of people will enter into these relationships where it's like okay, well, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. It's a duck, but the guy's like, no, it's not a duck, because I said I'm not looking for a committed relationship. So I may whine and dine you, I may take you out, I might have sex with you, I may reveal my deep secrets to you I am not your boyfriend and it's like, oh, but it's such a close, such a close step over. And so my rule is you know my experience with relationships is that when a guy wants a relationship, it is obvious, I am not confused. There's no long drawn out process, it's good.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 51:02

Now there have been two cases in my early, early history where that wasn't true and, after dragging each other through an endless, endless situationship, there was a commitment. One of those people was a terrible partner and the other person I left for the terrible partner. Um, so it's like it happens. It can happen, but you risk having a really bad foundation for a relationship, one where you maybe went months or years feeling undervalued and wondering what it is about you that makes somebody want to hang out with you, want to have sex with you, but not want to claim you. And then suddenly they do and it's kind of like, okay, well, what shifted? Can I trust this. Is it going to go back? I've spent so much time fighting for you, playing games, trying different strategies and like something clicked eventually. But how am I going to relax now?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:55

yeah, yeah, I mean I.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:57

I answered that question for myself because I dated my ex-husband in college and then the entire time I was like what about me is deficient, or what do I need to do more in order to get the commitment that I've always wanted? And I put it on me and I got so upset about it all the time, low self-esteem, and then years, years later, after I've developed and been like confident in myself, confident what I'm looking for, and then we dated again and then still he wasn't like meeting my hopes for a commitment, even though we were married, right like. He still was like holding back on giving me something, on showing up in a way that was asking him for. I also was like, what am I doing? What am I doing? But I was able to break away and be like, no, it's just what he's like in a relationship, right, and it's just so. That mystery of like oh, one day we'll magically fall in love and all the rom-coms and live happily ever after it kind of like broke that illusion for me yeah, if you can do that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 53:06

So does the research say that these are good for you or bad for you? Like, does the research it just? You said that they were like looking for the bad downsides, but is there any downside or any kind of tips from the research, or no?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:18

I read three papers and they all, they all couldn't find negative effects.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 53:23

So go ahead.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:23

Have them communicate.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:25

Yeah but I mean, I still just find that very hard to believe. I think what's difficult is that the research wasn't asking, it wasn't very specific, you know. It wasn't like how long have you been in this relationship? Please tell me the definitions of your relationship Because, look, I think you can have casual sex sometimes with a friend where you're also dating other people. You know you're having fun, you're living your single life and the sex with the friend isn't an expectation, it's more like oh, sometimes we have booty calls and then that's fine.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:01

I think that's just sometimes having casual sex with somebody. You know, that's very different from like having somebody who is defined as your friend with benefits, and maybe people are like, yeah, that's not really realistic. But I've met people who are like, yeah, like Josh and I had a conversation yesterday, we're going to be friends with benefits and then they start sleeping with each other all the time. It's like I don't see how that is going to succeed in the long term and, anecdotally, it never has. You know my friends who have done this. So I just think long term and anecdotally, it never has.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:33

You know, my friends who have done this, yeah, so I just think there's a definition problem.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:37

And I really want to hear from anyone listening If you could send us a text and let us know if you had successful ones, successful situationships or friends with benefits. I'm really curious.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:48

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:49

Yeah, I think in terms of thinking about tips for loved ones, like if you're seeing had this a lot too, or you're seeing a friend who is trying to date someone or hooking up with someone and they like are in a situation ship and they day does that mean he's getting closer right, like watching someone pursue that situation ship. What would you say would be a tip for what can you, how do you do to support them?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:21

uh, if you're confused, get out. But um, look, I mean, people have to go on their own journeys. Like we said this over and over again with relationships. I think you know you can help them see the consequences. You know I just made a mistake with a close friend where she texted me. She's like I'm spiraling.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 55:42

You know, my boyfriend's doing this again and I was like, yeah, seems like he lets you down a lot. I don't really know what to say and what I should have said was how can I help you? But it gets frustrating to me, you know, to see like a friend being undervalued and not treated well and still stay. So I don't know. I mean, if you have a friend who's in a casual friends with benefits situation and it's working really well, then I would say just don't judge them, keep your opinions to yourself and let them be happy. If it seems like there's something else going on, then you know, I guess you just have to let them go on their journey with it, because that's how you're really going to learn. Lessons is to just do the things but, maybe I don't like.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 56:23

I wish that he treated you differently. I wish you know I think that you're deserving of xyz.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:29

I mean, I don't think you have to keep your opinions to yourself to that degree yeah, I also say now, like if you just take everything you're getting from this person for face value, like this is what it's like to be in a relationship with him or her. How do you feel? Like what if it were like this forever? That's like my therapist, like thought experiment that I say if you know, if people are really hoping for a change, I'm really hooked on a change it's like what, what would it look like if you had just accepted the situation exactly as it is? Yeah, and not being this hoping that'll turn into something else? Like, is this good for you? Do you enjoy it? Do you get something out of it? Or is it? Is it purely for the hope of getting something else? Because you can't spend?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:20

I mean, delay gratification is one thing, but to spend your time and energy and exclusivity and your intimacy on something that just for the, for some kind of possibility, like that's kind of a waste of time in some ways. So it's like if you were, take this at face value and if not, if they're like oh no, I, you know, this is terrible, I want to get out of it. It's like, well, what about this is? What about this is? What is this doing for you, right, like for me, if I were to be self aware enough when I was in my 20s, chasing something felt good and normal to me, right Like pursuing something that's difficult and challenging and try to win someone's approval and try to perform in a way that helps me be seen by that other person. That felt normal to me and that felt like a normal way of earning love. So I had to work myself out of that and I could have said that at that point, like you know, if I win him, that would be, that would feel like love.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 58:26

I think that's a really good point. If, like my advice to like people thinking about this, is if you want sex and that's it, this is a good idea, maybe because it's with somebody you trust and know, Now please communicate, because you don't know what that other person is thinking, what expectations are, and it seems like a big problem with friends with benefits is there's no communication. But if what you're seeking is an attachment repair or you know like you have an attachment wound that you are trying to heal through this, then this is a bad idea. If what you are seeking is greater closeness to a particular person, I guess I would just ask yourself why? And are you going to be okay with truly never having a commitment? Are there risks to your self-esteem here? If this is somebody you are sure you don't want a commitment with and you can define the reasons, then like, go, have fun, you know, but it's just.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 59:31

I think this takes a lot of honesty with yourself a lot of honesty, a lot of honesty with yourself and them, and update the honesty. Like if you start to feel feelings or you start to, you know, have a shift, I think it's okay to communicate that. I think people get really upset when that happens because it's like, wait, but I thought before and now suddenly you don't like and that could feel like a deception. But I think it's a real thing that people's feelings can change over time, positively or negatively, and communicating that is important and on that, note like uh, what I hate about these situations, too, is that it seems like there's a weakness to catching feelings like oh he caught feelings, or he caught feelings, guess he couldn't take it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:14

It seems like there's a weakness to catching feelings Like, oh he caught feelings, or he caught feelings, guess he couldn't take it. It's like can we stop seeing that as a weakness? You know, it's beautiful to catch feelings for somebody else. It's beautiful if your body creates an attachment to somebody that you're having sex with. That is not a bad thing. That is really healthy, because when you finally do have that relationship, that's what you want. So don't see it as a defectiveness or a weakness in you. If you develop an attachment, that's what we're supposed to do. That's a great ability, and so please don't let the other person put you down for that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:00:50

I think that's true, I think actually you, that's a really good tip, because you did that for me when I had my horrible dating post-divorce where I felt embarrassed and foolish for wanting a commitment and then he ghosted, um, and I was like, oh I, that's weak, that's like I'm the one who gets chased. You know there's there's so much value for being the one chased. Yeah, you were like, you know, you loved and you were open and you pursued a commitment and were honest about that, and that's not something to be ashamed about. That's like on him that he didn't rise up to that and so, yeah, that really helped to make me see that like loving or caring or wanting something is not weakness.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:01:32

We see that, like loving or caring or wanting something, is not weakness. Yeah, I mean it's. It's it's. It's sad that we treat it like a weakness because it because really what it is is it's vulnerable, that's all you know. It sets us up for hurt. But if we believe that getting hurt is the definition of weakness, then we've got a problem, because really it's actually the ability to withstand hurt and to choose hurt, because you're choosing a risk, you know, and that's a very brave thing to do.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:02:00

So, yeah, I mean, I just think I get sometimes I get a little bit concerned about messaging around casual sex and what it means to be somebody who's engaging in it and what it means to be somebody who doesn't want to engage in it anymore, and I, I think it to have a successful friends with benefits or situationship. I, you don't want something that's tearing down your self-esteem and I think there's a big risk of, especially situationships, doing that. Um, so I guess ask yourself, like, where you know? So I guess ask yourself, like you know, what are you? What are you going to do if it doesn't work out? What are you going to do if this guy never likes you back?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:02:41

Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:02:41

Is that OK? What does it mean to you? Yeah, what does it mean to you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:02:45

Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:02:47

Well, I think on that note we'll close out and we'll see you next week because we are returning to weekly episodes. So, little helpers, we love you and we really mean that. We don't just want to be friends with benefits with you, we want to be in a committed relationship with all of our listeners. So if you feel the same, please subscribe and give us a five-star rating on apple podcasts or spotify by accessing this podcast. I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:03:33

This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.