Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, little helpers. Today we're going to do an episode I've wanted to do for a really long time but I've been waiting for a guest and that hasn't panned out because it's a deeply personal episode. So I think we're going to try to get a guest, maybe for a second episode, but for now, Kibby and I want to open up the topic, in part because one of you actually requested it. So the requested episode was on open relationships. I'm going to suggest that we broaden it a little bit to say ethical non-monogamy, of which open relationships is a type of relationship within E&M. But I'll read you the question and then we can start discussing. So the listener said "I just listened to the episode on situationships or friends with benefits and I have so many questions. Why are women more likely to catch feelings in these situations? Does research show that they are? Can you do an episode on open relationships situations? Does research show that they are? Can you do an episode on open relationships?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:10

I'm in an open marriage, dating five sorry, dating nine years, married for two, and we largely opened the marriage because I wanted more experience with sex, but I found that sex without feelings isn't as good to me. So now I at least want to trust, slash, value my other partners without necessarily falling in love with them. Hope they can do the same towards me. I know I'm playing with fire, but that's part of what I get out of it. It's fun and exciting. I just wonder what your general advice would be on open relationships. Slash what the research says." Okay, this person is from Missouri, which actually I think adds an interesting element to this. I have been kind of adjacent to the E&M community, or I was at least. When I lived in New York last time I dated somebody for a bit who had been E&M for like 10 years.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:56

E&M is ethical non-monogamy right, Ethical non-monogamy, which basically means that you're non-monogamous but it's consensual. You know you're trying to do this but it's consensual. You know you're you're you're trying to do this in an ethical way, in an intentional way. And I think the first, the reason I think the Missouri piece is interesting is that when I was kind of adjacent to this adjacent meeting, like I would, I was dating this guy who was E&M and all of his friends were E&M and we would hang out with them, We'd go to their parties. They had a set community. That, I think, made it easier to do this. And it does interest me that this person is in Missouri, because I would think that that would be very different. So we can just put a pin in that. But I do think it might be a consideration of, like, where you live. Are you thinking of doing this and how that might influence your choice.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:48

Yeah, and, by the way, we love that you guys have written in with questions. So if you ever have questions or topic suggestions or anything we want to address, in your show notes it says send us a text or something like that. Just click that, that and you could text us directly. We can't text you back there, so if you want us to respond, put your email there. But we love this, we love that Missouri wrote wrote us with this question.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 3:14

So thank you you can also, of course, write to me on Instagram at Trumbelina, or Kibbe at Kulamata. Okay, so I'm trying to think where we should start. E E&M is a specific topic, but also kind of a broad topic because it's an umbrella term that contains a bunch of different kinds of relationships, which creates a bit of a research dilemma, sort of like the situationships or friends with benefits thing did of like what are we actually talking about? This person requested open relationships, which can itself mean a lot of things, but I think most typically it refers to you have a primary partner, you two are committed, but you can have like extramarital sex or sorry, you don't have to be married, you can have sex outside of the relationship.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 4:03

The extent of the, I guess, commitment or feelings for the other people is a little bit like less specified. But if we're talking about a relationship where you have like multiple full on relationships, then colloquially people say that's polyamory. The research literature was a little bit more vague about that. So I just feel like, once again, when we were researching this topic, it was like it was just a little bit all over the place, because it's trying to refer to so many things. I don't know what are your like. What are your thoughts on that and what comes up for you when you hear E&M? Yeah, I don't know what are your thoughts on that and what comes up for you when you hear E&M.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:47

Yeah, I mean, when we were talking about this, I really wanted to know what's the definition of an open relationship versus polyamory, because I wanted to address them separately in separate episodes, in separate episodes and I'm like, okay, well then I guess it must be the expectation about what those quote other relationships are like. Or maybe, in my mind, open open relationships mean there's like one central relationship that you're in and then you can engage in sex with other people. But what does that mean If it's like you can engage in sex with other people? But what does that mean if it's like you can engage in sex with the same person, right? Like, let's say you have you're in a marriage or partnership?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 5:32

and then you have sex with someone else consistently, like a relationship with someone else. Is that polyamory, because then it's like a consistent relationship with multiple people, or is that an open relationship? So my first question is what is what?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:51

What are the definitions here? No, it's tough, and so I think our purpose in today's episode is not to give some like expert opinion on this, but rather introduce the topic, start introducing the terms and talk about what you know different elements of it that can make it more successful or not. Um, and then just our psychological perspective. But I don't want this to be confused with like a we are experts on E&M and you know we're going to throw down, and in part it's because of this. I mean, it's a little bit hard for me to say who would be an expert on E&M, who isn't in one of these relationships, because that's just the research is muddy.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 6:36

I like the term E&M because I know a lot of people in these relationships and every single couple looks totally different. I know a couple where their kink is like watching each other have sex with other people, but there is no allowance for continuing those relationships. I know a couple where they are primary partners. They're not looking for relationships with others, but they are looking to consistently date other people, and one of the reasons is bisexuality. You know, one of the people is bisexual and so likes to explore with both. The other is a kinkster and so likes to explore his kink in other relationships. I know I know someone who has multiple boyfriends and girlfriends. They're also queer. I know married couples who go to sex parties regularly. It's such a gamut.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:45

Anyone looks at E&M and ask questions about it. It's kind of like looking at monogamous relationships, like it's. It's a bit hard to say is monogamy successful? Like what makes it successful? Because that just even within monogamous relationships there's such a variation in diversity. Obviously it's specific that you're just together, but that's just one component of your relationship and so many different things come in to make it successful or not successful. So it's same thing with E&M. I did consult with a friend of mine who is in an E&M relationship for this episode and he gave me a lot of feedback and kind of things to talk about me, a lot of feedback and kind of things to talk about. So I'd want to dive into that stuff too.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 8:33

But I guess just to real quick address her first question, which is why are women more likely to catch feelings in situationships? I don't know that that's necessarily true. I think it's the conventional wisdom and like true from an evolutionary perspective. So not capital T true, but just like what the evolutionary perspective would suggest, because women are suggested to be more interested in commitment and I think there are sort of brain anatomy and hormonal reasons why women can tend to have feelings for men that they sleep with over time. I think the female orgasm is. I should have looked into this more, but I think the female orgasm, like, releases particular hormones that are connected. I don't know if it's oxytocin or what. I don't know why that wouldn't be the case for men, but there's a book on it called the Female Brain that might be interesting, but some of this is dated and I mean a lot of men are more likely to catch feelings in situations. So I didn't mean to suggest that it was always going to be the woman who would be most at risk of like finding commitment.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:43

Yeah, it's also now. What do? What feelings do do we mean at this point? Because, especially when we're blurring a bunch of different conventions, um, I guess catching feelings in.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:55

When I first heard that I thought, oh, meaning I want more, I want a more of a commitment from that person, and that just makes sense biologically because it's so much more of an investment on our bodies to have a baby, right, like as much, as as much as I've, you know, really appreciate modern society for what we can do.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 10:15

It's still like if I get pregnant, I am going to really need that commitment from that partner, whereas the other partner can just male partner, can just impregnate many women, elon Musk, for example. So it makes sense that if we're committing ourselves sexually, then there are hormonal and and physiological responses of like I want to make sure that this guy stays around and protects me and takes care of the baby that we're having. So I mean that's just like, really pure. But like catching feelings. I mean I've definitely been in situations where, you know, situationships or sexual romantic relationships where the guy's more into me, Right, but that could mean like he just wants to have more sex with me and that kind of commitment versus like wanting the relationship, so I guess it's like what? What do you mean by catching feelings in these situations?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:06

Right, I mean I, I predict the research would show that women are less interested in, uh, going to bars every night and finding people to have one night stands with. Um, I think people try to make arguments that sex is, like, just as desirable to women and wanted by women as men, and I can see arguments for that. But at the same time, women don't seem to make decisions with sex as the first priority in the same way that men do. Um, they don't seem to choose relationships purely on the basis of sex in the same way, um, yeah, I just, I just see men centering sex in their decision making processes a lot more than women, um, and going after it a lot more than women, but in part, that's, women don't have to go after it I think we're just in this really weird phase of society where social connection and relationships are rapidly changing to like breakneck speed, to the point where we don't even like constructs about sexuality and gender.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 12:14

You know, like it's just moving too fast for us to really understand. But it's just interesting that all of this challenges monogamy and its use in our society. Right, like, do we really need it? I mean, I think traditionally it's, it's. It has a lot of religious roots, right, and you know you're married to God and like what you, what you're allowed to do sexually with your partner versus other people, a lot of other you know spiritual practices will say, like, how much can other men or other partners like see your skin or hair or even touch you? Right, there's a lot of like these social rules around what that marriage is for and what you can do with sex, and sex is a way to have a family, so only do that with the person you're going to have a family with. But now we're like, hey, I have a sexual side and a sexual part of me that it wants to explore.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 13:14

Just, as much as I want to explore like different kinds of friendships, like what is it like to have sex with women and men, or people with different kinds of kinks, or things like that. So it is unreasonable to believe that your one partner can fulfill all of that. So I think before, when it was just so taboo that anything is cheating, anything else would be cheating. Now it's like okay, let's admit that more people do this or are curious about it than we were willing to admit before, and let's actually put different labels to kind of signal to everyone else what we're looking for and what we are open to.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 13:53

I think the historical perspective is interesting here because it has always been assumed and we were kind of giving the historical perspective of, like, you know, women need commitment from men because it's so much more of an investment on the woman's part, and so we need monogamy. And so, you know, marriage or monogamy is like an institution that allows children to be raised to an ideal standard because they have the investment of both parents, and without that, women would be screwed and men would just be spreading their seed everywhere. But there's another perspective that I'm not sure has been upheld, but, um, a book and I'm blanking on the name of it, um, that was written, I believe, by like sociologists or, um, not biologists though basically argued that back when human beings were nomadic, the ideal way to raise children wasn't necessarily in monogamous diets, because you're constantly moving and you don't have any property, and so it's actually more beneficial to have like to help the community raise the children, and in that sense paternity doesn't matter as much. You know you could, so you could be how you could have sex with, like multiple different partners. You have multiple babies, and then the community raises them, and then that's fine.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 15:17

And then the argument was basically the monogamy arose from farming, where suddenly these communities became, uh, they didn't move. Why am I not able to find words today? What? Stationary, stationary, sure, um, and then property became a thing. So you know, when they started farming, it's like, okay, I need this piece of land for myself, because these are my resources, I'm tending to them, and I then see a woman as a necessary piece of property because I don't, I can't, we're not moving around altogether Like we're sitting in one place. Sitting in one place, we're not sharing to the same degree anything, any of our resources.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:13

And paternity is suddenly important because without this kind of like, the community raises the children. Your resources are very important to you, they're yours and you want them to go to your own genes Interesting. And so suddenly it became very important to say no, that woman is my woman. She is not allowed to have sex with any other men because I don't. Only she knows her maternity for sure, I don't know. So now I must protect her. So these people would argue that monogamy is actually an institution that more or less oppresses women and is used for paternity and ownership and basically also puts most of the work on women, on a singular woman to raise the children. Now again, I don't know how much evidence, but there was a lot of pushback to this book. One of the arguments is also that we tend to align ourselves with a chimpanzee and say that's our closest living relative, but actually we're equally related to the bonobo, which is extraordinarily ENM.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:22

They're wild, they have a great time. Lots of orgies.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:29

So I don't know right. Like I think, though, one thing one point my friend made is people see ENM as this crazy idea that's just doomed to fail. But 50% of marriages are doomed to fail, so we're already not working with very good numbers here.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 17:47

Yeah, I mean it just shows how much there is such a mainstream, that's just a standard that's floating around in our collective conscious, where it's like, okay, what I'm looking for in life and what the sign of success and the thing that will work and they're all going for, is that find that partner, marry them, have that huge wedding, have two kids, have a job, balance it all, blah, blah, blah. Right there's, there's still such a really very specific way that we look at partnerships and marriage and I'm thinking about it. It's like if, when I go to Hong Kong for my Chinese family, I mean there is that expectation too, but there is a lot more of this group raising children and then like cheating, for example, is way more accepted. Sadly, men are like it's no big deal if they have mistresses on the side. It's almost kind of expected that they do.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:51

Only for men, though.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:52

Huh.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:52

Only for men, though, kind of I don't know, maybe now with modern era I have no idea what's going on now over there, but it was like not a big deal that men could have mistresses, and as long as they don't embarrass the family, family like as long as it's not like open um, and as long as the man stays like loyal to the family in terms of like contributing what he does and providing. And even I've even heard some people over there say like actually it's kind of nice, because when you have kids and you're exhausted you don don't want to have sex Like he doesn't get upset, he's, he goes and satisfied that I need somewhere else. So the idea of like family is slightly separated from who you can have sex with which is really interesting.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 19:40

Well, and that also conforms to the paternity hypothesis where, you know, both needs are being the woman is getting the investment of the man and then the man is getting his paternity mat. The woman's not going out cheating, it's just him that's allowed to, you know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 19:55

Uh, go out and kind of smell other flowers and the only thing that makes makes that seem palatable. If, like, let's say, I put myself in in that culture, I would be're. If, if I'm ever thinking about the risks with, you know, opening up a relationship, my fear is if I'm going to lose the things that I have right. Like if I, if I open up my marriage, what if Alex goes and, like, sleeps with someone else? Okay, but what if he falls in love and leaves me Right and in another? In in a culture where the cheating is okay but you still have that property as long as, like the I had to say it the quote bastards don't get the property right. It's like as long as the family gets the inheritance and having the mistresses doesn't risk the property transfer to the kids, that would make it okay, okay, and so it's interesting, yeah it's interesting because that also is more about property, whereas I think the american attitude is more about love.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 20:55

What if he falls in love somewhere else? So even if he came back and said I'll stay here and like our, you know, jackson will get all of our resources, everything you'd still be bummed like but what if you, what if you love the other person? And and then also we have more of an obsession with equality here and most people probably wouldn't be cool with like husband's allowed to cheat, but wife isn't Right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:20

Yeah, I mean we have crazy expectations over here for what our partner should be. It should be our best friend, it should be our sole sex partner. It should be our best friend, it should be our sole sex partner, it should be our main source of affection. All the different things that you were talking about before the triangular theory of love, what was it? The passion, the intimacy and trust and commitment. Yeah, are the three. One person should give me all of that, and opening it up would risk losing that person.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 21:48

Well, I mean mean not only that but, as esther perel would say, like they also have to be the funniest person I've ever met, the best looking person, you know, the, the mysterious person who I have total desire for, and also the person that this is, again to the triangular theory like also the person that I trust and in and um, we can feel safe with um, the smartest, the richest, you the richest, you know, the, whatever.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 22:08

We're always like looking for this perfect person, and I think what E&M does is sidestep that a little bit and say I w it's funny. When I would go to sex parties, I would see people hook up with other people who I deem to be like for there to be a big attraction uh, difference Delta. I was like this is interesting. But when you're not looking for the one, you can appreciate people for all sorts of different reasons. You know, like you could say, okay, maybe this isn't my usual type, but who cares, I'm not out here just looking for one representative of my usual type. I can go outside my type, I can find this person attractive for other reasons and just have all of these experiences with all sorts of different people, cause there's just no pressure for them to be perfect.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 22:58

If you could open up your relationship, would you? And why? I guess this is. This is a question of like what does, what do you hope and expect your main partner, the you know primary partner, to give you, and what are you allowed to look for in other relationships? So, yeah, what would that be if you can be like, okay, we have this and then I go go outside for that?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 23:23

well. So first of all I would not open it, but there's there was a time when that answer would be different. Not really with Jason, I've said. You know, I think what I would like is for in 10 years to have a state of the union address and we kind of figure out, like where is our sex life and how much trust do we have? And actually would it be beneficial for us to go pollinate elsewhere and kind of bring in some of that like excitement and fire that our listener was talking about? He's not open to that. So, whatever, I personally have become a lot less romantic in the past five years. Yeah, kibbe's looking at me quizzically.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 24:02

That's true, but go on.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 24:04

It's true in a particular way. So I think the way I've become more romantic is that I'm actually willing to accept another person and love them for who they are and appreciate relationships more. So you're like, yeah, duh, okay, that sounds very romantic, but what I mean when I become less romantic is that I've become less like Rilke or the Impressionists or like the kind of. I've become less obsessed with love, less obsessed with, like love and beauty and lyricism, more infatuation more of the romantic Right and a different yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 24:36

But when I was obsessed with, when I was more romantic, I think polyamory was more appealing to me because I wanted to test out so many different kinds of loves. I wanted to experience everything. I was kinds of loves, I wanted to experience everything. I was more invested in the infatuation element and I knew that infatuation would sort of fade over time and so E&M was a way to resuscitate that and that's just less of an interest for me now, but I understand, for other people it remains an interest and that's fine.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 25:16

And you know, I do think that certain things are kind of impossible in just a monogamous relationship. Like, I think it's kind of impossible for you to feel the same dopamine hit five years, 10 years into a monogamous relationship than you do in, you know, an E&M setup where you can. You can go and meet new people and have that excitement and if that's really valuable to you and genuinely no judgment because it is a fast, it's an amazing feeling If that's really valuable, then maybe that's great. That's, I think, kind of a romantic side of it. But I also just think that there are plenty of other reasons why people do E&M and many people who are in them would roll their eyes at that part of my explanation, but for me that's why I initially had an interest in it was because I wanted to experience all sorts of different people. I wanted that dopamine hit. I was romantic, I wanted love, love.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:06

Love was romantic, I wanted love love, love and with a bunch of different people. So if you could now, if you could open it up to get to have, um, that kind of that dopamine hit of crush, crushes and dates and all that stuff, would you, would you do it?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 26:42

No, I'm just not interested in that anymore and I think the risks of it and the costs of it are just too high considering my low interest in all of that. The risk being yeah, I wish I had said in the friends with benefits episode, I'm going to say it here instead is that what I find difficult is that if you have a friend with benefits, you already have a friendship. Friendship confers certain benefits already. Like if I go to jail, I could call Kibbe to pick me up and maybe she would come right. Like Kibbe, you know, gets me dinner sometimes. Kibbe, like calls it gives me emotional support when I need it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 27:18

And the problem is that when you add sex but not commitment and I don't actually mean sexual commitment, I mean like commitment in some other fashion there is a risk that you asking for those other benefits comes across as you wanting more from the relationship. Give us an example. What is that? If I'm having sex with a guy friend and I want him to take me to dinner, that might seem like I want him to be my boyfriend. Or if I want him to pick me up from the airport, or if I don't want him to call some other hoe while he's in bed with me, then that might seem like, oh, she doesn't, she's not actually comfortable with this casual setup, she wants more, when in reality I want those things because you're my friend and it's really, really hard to know where the lines are of those kinds of prioritizations and commitment.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:33

What I like about E&M is that it does not assume that sex is the cornerstone of the commitment. I've heard a lot of people say well, if you're going to fuck other people, then what's the point of a relationship? That's what a relationship is, and I'm like, really Is it? Because when I think about my relationship, sex is an ingredient, but it's not the main ingredient. And I could have sex with other people, but I would still fully believe that I'm in a committed relationship Because I know that he's the first person I'd call if I needed something, and vice versa. I know that I have someone to come home to. I know I have somebody that I'm designing and building a life with that is going to outlast. You know the vicissitudes of the day to day and that, to me, is what commitment is, and I've always appreciated that E&M has put the focus on those things or said okay, what does commitment mean to us Instead of making an assumption that sexual exclusivity is the definition of a commitment.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:30

Yeah, absolutely yeah. The commitment. We have just the shorthand and we thought we knew what that meant. Commitment if I just say, oh, why isn't he committing to me, you might think why isn't that person exclusive?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:46

with me at this point Right, but it's almost just like commitment now. Is that person committed to meeting the expectations that you have for them, um, or want to have for them, um? Yeah, and it's. It's just interesting as, as you were talking about, I was thinking that it is so weird that all of my other relationships, my romantic relationships, started with sex or hooking up. Usually they were friends or, like you know, acquaintances, and then we would primarily start the intimacy with the sex and then it would develop into okay, we're not having sex with anyone else. Therefore, we are now together.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 30:28

And then that would lead to other expectations of, well, now you're my emotional support Now, like if I'm having a bad day and I call you and the person goes, why are you calling me? You know, that would be weird because my expectation is like now we're in a committed relationship. That means that we could share those kinds of like we're emotional support, right. So it kind of like layered on a bunch of commitment with Alex, my current husband is it's. We had 18 years of friendship first and had all sorts of commitment, except for the sex. The sex was the last thing we added to our relationship and it's just, it's just so bizarre because, yeah, when I think about it, I'm like sex is probably like the last thing that makes us us.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:15

What makes the, what makes him and I, special to me, is that I know that I can trust him in all these different ways. I trust him to be there when I was sick, or my emotional support when, um, to be like a good co-parent, to build a life together, right, and the sexual monogamy was not the first set of commitments that we made together. It was in this iteration but like not in the course of our relationship. So, huh, I don't know. This is just making me all think about. Like what is commitment and what is a relationship? So like for you? You say, like the, the sex, the monogamy for sex is not the most important, it's not the core part. For you, what would you see?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:01

if I had a crystal ball and it said, hey, you and jason are going to open your marriage sexually, but he will never fall in love with another person and he will never prioritize another person over you and vice versa, would you allow it?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:18

I'd still probably not be that interested but I'd be like maybe. Like depends on what the benefits are, you know. If it, if it leads to a steamier sex life for both of us, then like cool. If it leads to a steamier sex life for both of us, then like cool. If it leads for, you know, to me meeting new people that I find really interesting and cool and like get to go on dates with them, then maybe it's worth it. But yeah, I mean, for me it's I have a point person. I have a person that I go to when I, you know, when I need him. I have the person that is just, that's just there and loves me and thinks of me and is there for me, and I have a person with whom to share a future and it's that kind of future orientation building that really makes up the commitment for me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:03

What if okay? So what we're talking about is the risk for you is that he would fall in love with somebody else. That's the risk, right? What if he is like, hey, let's open up the relationship, I might fall in love with someone else.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:22

However no matter what, you and I are making this life together. We're going to have kids, we're going to have a family, we're going to Um, I might know. Okay, you're shaking your head. I mean, I know, I know this is impossible. This is more of a thought experiment of like what if you get the commitment that the thing that you're, that makes the core of your relationship, won't go away. But then that means that it opens up the parameters on the sexual side, or the even the love, emotional love side.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:52

Yeah, I mean and some people would be totally cool with that I have an absence of jealousy, but I would not say that I have compersion, which is you know when you basically are happy for your partner having like other sexual experiences or other love experiences and you're like you know what makes you happy is knowing that that person is really enjoying themselves and really connecting deeply, like you know what makes you happy is knowing that that person is really enjoying themselves and really connecting deeply and, you know, fulfilling something in themselves. I, I'm not that good of a person and so, jason, falling in love with somebody else is just not in my interests in any way, um, and would make me feel bad about about myself.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:24

Why, um, why, if he's like I, I still love respect. You want to have kids with you, want to build this family with you. And, oh, my mistress, or my, my, the other, my other girlfriend, I love her so much like right.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 34:40

I mean I can make a rational argument.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 34:42

You were the bachelor you were like technically, on this, somehow our society was like cool, we're allowing, in the world of the Bachelor Nation, for this man to have 30, quote girlfriends, right? So you all were like the girlfriends.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 34:58

I didn't develop feelings for him until I knew I was going to leave.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 35:02

Then you became his girlfriend, along with all others. So what?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 35:05

And then I left. Okay, you also know it's temporary, you know? Yeah, right, I mean, look, there have been times actually where I could conceivably be interested in an E&M relationship if I were the other woman. I just wouldn't want to be the primary partner in these setups. Why? What is that? Because I I do think I'm still romantic enough to just want one person to be mine and for and like for me to be their one person, sorry for love and commitment. Like I can make a rational argument for why it would be a beautiful thing for them to love other people and for me to love other people. Like I think it's. I think it's lovely when other people do it. Um, I'm, I'm very judgmental of friends with benefits, but I'm not very judgmental about E&M, like I think I think when it works, it's a beautiful thing. It's just not something I want to do personally. I mean, would you be cool with Alex falling in love with someone?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:02

What is the thing that you're risking? Let's say my thought experiment, where he's having sex with someone else, he's in love with someone else, but you get the commitment that you were just saying like and he still loves me right in this thought experiment. Yeah, my ego, I think is it that you're not special? You're not like the most special? Okay, right, what is so what? What is that? What if he's like I love you and I love you equally?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:26

yeah, that's terrible so it's being special. It's being loved in it as the only one that yeah, that's terrible. So it's being special. It's being loved as the only one that gets that special heart. What if he's like I'm in love with your intellect? This other girl I'm in love with her snowboarding skills. I don't know how would that?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 36:43

That would be slightly more acceptable to me, since I don't value snowboarding skills. That's what I'm saying. I would still. I just don't think there's any. Yeah, my ego would just be burnt.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:55

Okay, so, jason, you're not going to get an harem.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 36:59

I don't know on the table. You're not going to get that I'm a much greater risk of wanting a harem than he is. He's very much like. No, yeah, very, would you be okay with?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 37:08

Alex loving him. This is the question. This is, I mean, I think that this topic is opening up the opening up the question of what. What does, what does make up a relationship? What is what makes up your primary relationship If you're in an open relationship? What makes it open versus, just like you know, you're having multiple relationships? What can we expect, what kind of commitment can we expect from a romantic partner? And I, yeah, I think there's there's just this gut piece of not feeling special. Right, there's of of preferring another woman. Right, there's of of preferring another woman. And the interesting thing for me and alex is like I spent most of our relationship like being his wing woman and list and watching and listening to all of his like romantic and sexual exploits, which there were many um on youtube now.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 38:10

But, um, and there was something fun in that for me because I got to see first of all, I got to see a different side of him than I did when he was with me. Um, he was more he. He he's quite shy in many ways but he also is very good socially and he's he's very like, very empathetic and in tune and can like when he can turn things on and like go for someone he really can, he's dominant, yeah, and so like it was fun to watch him do that and then discover about that person Right, and I just, you know, as a psychologist, we love learning about, like the intimate parts of relationships and people. So it was kind of like a window into that. So actually us getting together made me lose like this really awesome window I had and I really miss it to the point where I've said to him jokingly and not jokingly like maybe we should open up the relationship so you could date again, so I can get that satisfaction.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 39:08

Oh well, because I always felt like I had the special position with him, like I was special in a different way, like I don't think anyone could replace me in his life right as a friend or whatever Cause. You know, we just had this really special friendship and then, even if you were to sleep with someone else, I don't think he's at risk of going away in the sense of replacing me or building a family with somebody else, and that's really the key thing. I think that when we talk about open relationships and what's the risk, it's like how do we protect the? What is that one thing that we want from that partner? That's our primary partner and how do we protect that? If we're opening it up to them sleeping with other people, then is that opening up the risk that they're going to fall in love and find another woman special?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:02

yeah, I mean, that's all I it's so weird that I've become like the super monogamous one because when I was with Paul I was all about Paul. I mean that I've become like the super monogamous one Because when I was with Paul I was all about Paul. I mean I had ulterior motives there, which is that I wasn't happy in my relationship, but I do get what you mean. It is somewhat intriguing for me to think about Jason hitting on another girl and I've always thought it would be kind of hot to like watch him with another girl. I don't think it's hot enough to really make it worth it. But I could also see how, in many years when we do have more of a friendship, like right now, I'm still seeing him hit on me and so and maybe Alex is still hitting on you, I don't know but you two just have such a different relationship history that they're just apples and oranges.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:51

Um, right now I just think I'm so relieved to be in a relationship where I don't want to open it up, Like I don't want to meet other people, that I'm just fully invested here. But I've never been the like. I've never been the person who is possessive or who I don't know. I joke with him all the time when he's like how would you feel if I, just, like, got a blowjob from someone else? I'd be like, well, I mean, as long as you film it and send it to me, you know, whatever Like then, how do we?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 41:25

how are we distilling? How do we? How are we distilling, like, let's say, our our fans question of, like, um, we wanted to open up the relationship to experience more sex, but it's, but she's not experiencing the same level of um, excitement or joy from sex without the, without the feelings. So what do you do in that scenario? How do you so? For example, like for our our fan who wrote in and said I want to open up the relationship so that I can experience the pleasure of having sex with multiple people. Now, in order to do that and really enjoy it, feelings should be involved, right, like, it's just way more fun to have sex with someone you care about and trust and are attracted to right, for some people. But then, how do you prevent the risks of losing whatever makes the commitment of the primary relationship happen, right, like, how do you prevent yourself from falling in love with someone?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:25

I don't know, and is there?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:27

is that even an option Is?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:30

that even when you do that?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 42:31

Are you just inherently causing problems by opening up the relationship and increasing the risk that someone else falls in love with someone else?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:39

I mean I think you increase the risk, but I think there are certain things you can do. I mean, what I love about E&M is that you don't accept a template of a relationship and assume this is what makes our relationship a relationship and these are the rules you get to make your own. So it's a conversation with her husband about look, here's my dilemma, what do we want to do about this? I had one couple who you know. I think part of this goes back to, like, what are feelings, right? So she's talking about a greater trust and intimacy, which is riskier because that grows over time and it kind of entails multiple meetings. I had another.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:18

I had a couple who they had a rule that, like, once that stuff starts, you're out, but that doesn't mean there were no feelings, because what attracted them to the other people in the first place was chemistry. So, yeah, it's more fun to have sex with people that you have feelings for, but what feelings are we talking about? Like, for me, it would probably only be fun to have sex with people I had chemistry with but didn't really have the other stuff, because I knew it wouldn't be able to grow anywhere without threatening my relationship and it wouldn't have the just like dopamine, chemistry, you know cocktail that I'm after. So I mean, I think you have to define, like, what are we really looking for in these other relationships? Are we looking for dopamine, you know? Are we looking for a chemistry cocktail? Are we looking for the opportunity to really get to know other people and have strong emotional connections with other people? And that's totally legitimate to want that too, because there is a great excitement in really getting to intimately know multiple other people.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:21

I think also yourself. I feel like I'm so glad I got to experiment sexually and romantically when I was younger, because then I got to experience different sex styles, like people liking slow or rough or, you know, on furniture. You know different things and I got to be different people with them and to see what I liked.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:45

So I and I, I feel, yeah, I feel like, unless you have that, if you're in a monogamous relationship, like all your life, since you were young, I'm like, oh man, that's so sad you miss out on the exploration Like, hopefully that one partner you get to do that with is inherently bad, but I, I do see that it's like, how do we then protect um from the risks which is like losing, like falling in love with someone else, breaking up the relationship, and I feel like that's a tricky thing, because I mean that's tricky whether you're an open or closed relationship. Right, like, if you are afraid that your partner will fall in love with someone else, I mean you don't have to have sex for that. They can fall in love with their coworker, like whatever you know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 45:34

That could just happen, right, probably is more likely they're sleeping with that coworker, maybe because of all the oxytocin. Yeah, I have a friend here in New York who opened their marriage. This is a bad story. This is how it goes wrong. Opened their marriage. They had no intention of being polyamorous. They were like let's just sleep with other people and stay together and still have a family and still stay married, right. So they wanted more of a traditional like we are together'm making a family, but we can open up and have sex. So I think they had some rules around it. Like they couldn't have sex with people that they knew in common or that were like in daily life or things like that, and they couldn't have sex in certain places, like it couldn't be in one of their homes or it couldn't be. Um, I think there was even rules around the types of relation of sex they could have.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 46:38

like they couldn't have like sex without protection or like levels of like what they can do with that other person and the wife broke those rules and had sex with someone that they knew mutually and had sex without protection. And I forgot if it was in one of their homes, but it was, it did they definitely broke a lot of the rules? Oops, if it was in one of their homes, but it was, it did they definitely broke a lot of the rules. Oopsie, right, and then, but she was like, okay, our main thing was to be honest with each other. So she told her partner and said her husband and said this is what, this is what I did. We're not going to like this was a one-time thing, this was within the bounds of our open relationship. I did I admit that it is someone that we know blah, blah, blah. And the husband was furious Like you cheated on me, you broke our marriage and I think it took them a long time to repair from it. I think they repaired.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:40

I don't know if there's like undercurrents of like upsetness with this or still pain, but yeah, I feel like this is an example Everyone listening might be like oh yeah, I feel like that. This is an example Everyone might listen might be like oh yeah, of course, but like this is an example of if you're opening a relationship, what you're doing is you have to make a custom set of rules for you and your relationship. You can't rely on like what's you know, like you know common knowledge or traditional. You have to be like okay, it's okay to have sex, sex with someone, but it cannot be this group of people, right. So you have to get really specific and have your own like agreement somewhere, and then breaking it would mean breaking that particular relationship and so or the like, the expectation of that relationship.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:25

So I mean it just seems tough because there's so many other rules to pay attention to right Like having no sex with someone else is a lot easier than being like okay, I'm going to have sex with these people in these ways, but not in other ways, Right?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 48:38

So yeah, Um, I have many thoughts. So the first is when you said, is there any way to do this and minimize the risk? I think, yes, I don't think you can eliminate the risk. I think the way to minimize the risk is to be super duper honest with yourself about why you're doing this and then give that your partner that honesty as well. So, um, and when you're right about, like you, you know, close relation, even in a monogamous relationship, there are still threats.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 49:04

So, for instance, I there are, like some men from my past that I am attracted to or like kind of I've had like long-term crushes on and what I, when I first got together with Jason and started thinking about like okay, what, you know, what if these people interacted with me, the thing that became clear very quickly is I can have crushes on people for all sorts of different reasons, but it doesn't mean that they make good partners. And what makes Jason unique to me is that we have a really good partnership. And so, you know, exploring other relationships could be cool, but ultimately, what I really value is having a really good partnership. So I think, like in my case, if I were, if we were to have an open relationship, like maybe I would go dally with those people. But keep in mind, you know, making that anything more than a dalliance doesn't serve my goals of having a really good partnership. Now, of course, it could turn out that they seem like they're really good partners, but you don't really know that very easily. So I mean, I think you could say, like, okay, why are we really doing it? Are we doing this because we want chemistry, Like we want to explore dopamine? Okay, If we're going to do that, what's the safest way and most intentional way we can do that without threatening the relationship. And it sounds like your friends attempted to do that, but I don't know, like from your story I can't tell why they decided to open up the marriage, what exactly they were looking for, and I wonder if there was a, if there was a breakdown there, if they weren't really really clear in their heads why they're doing this. Because if she was able to break a rule I don't know how easily she broke it, but it it just kind of suggests that she went for something that was sort of outside of the of the bounds of what she ostensibly wanted.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:53

The second part, though, is that when you make a custom set of rules and you do something that is not really applauded by society and there's not a whole lifetime of your own conditioning around it. There may need to be some flexibility and forgiveness around it, because it is really easy to make mistakes, and so do you want a mistake to break up your relationship. It sounds like these two people repaired and so it just took some like a lot of repair work. But you have to kind of decide, like, if you don't use a condom once, like how detrimental is that?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 51:26

On the one hand, it's really, really important that we use condoms Like it's really really important, but on the other hand, like it is really easy to slip up if you're going to be, if you're going to be doing the things that kind of often come along with dating again, like drinking, bar hopping, like meeting new people with their own different standards and rules, and it's just there are so many opportunities for things to go wrong, which is why IANA requires so much communication. And I think that that is a double-edged sword, Because, on the one hand, as my friend pointed out, he's like you know, if any of your listeners have the opportunity to meet E&M couples, they might learn a lot Because they communicate so effectively, so abundantlyogamous couples would try to keep more under wraps. On the other hand, do you really want to talk about your relationship that much?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 52:52

Like what Give us more tips on what your friend said makes it work? Like what does a communication in a relationship look like versus traditional ones's say?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:03

I mean, like let's say that, um, you're you're doing enm in part because of a kink. You probably have to be very, very honest with your partner about that kink and why it's so important to you and why you can't do it with them. And maybe it's because the partner isn't willing to um, and you know, maybe it's like because you want that chemistry cocktail. You have to be really honest about, like the extent to which you can get that in your, in your current relationship.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:29

I think a lot of monogamists pretend like that's not a thing and pretend like their relationship is perfect and gives them absolutely everything they want and non-monogamous. Can't they have to admit like I don't get every, I don't get all my needs met in this relationship. Any other person has to sit with that. Yeah right, it's a bit of an ego ding and and they have to talk about, like what needs they can possibly meet and what needs can't they mean and meet, and why they can get it with other people. And then that you know they have to be constantly updating, like what's going on in your other relationships. How serious is this getting? Or Are any threats emerging? Like how are your feelings? Do we need to monitor anything Like is this partner dragging you away from me? Is this my jealousy emerging? I mean, there's just like so many conversation topics that just have to be talked through, mm-hmm.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:19

Yeah, that's really cool. I guess the idea is like yeah, you're doing your own custom relationship, so you're not relying on any assumptions, right Like if? If Alex says oh.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 54:30

I'm going out to dinner with a friend she's a girl and she's really pretty, you know I'm going to. I'm probably not going to talk a lot about it because I'm just kind of like, okay, there's an assumption there that he's not going to sleep with her or whatever. But in order to have all that level of conversation, like what do you want from this dinner? Like what are the things that I'm worried about? And I wonder too, if you know, we were talking last time in situationships about the non-reciprocal nature, like what makes a situation versus friends with benefits? It's like how does everyone feel about what they're doing? If you there, I've heard some open relationships happening because one person wants to sleep with other, with other people, and the other one is like I have to give them that in order to keep them in a really like sad way or one.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 55:24

Let's just say, one partner really wants to open it and the other one is like going along with it, and it's like maybe different levels of open to that, but they're, if they had a choice they wouldn't open it. Right, this is just something that would make that person happy. Um, that's, I don't know if that's a recipe for disaster, but that's really tricky, because then I, if that's a recipe for disaster, but that's really tricky because then I think it's a recipe for disaster, yeah, I mean, they're going to have different motivations for opening it. Right, the person who's like giving into it, it's going to. I would just be like, okay, now I have to find someone to sleep with, just so I don't get super jealous and I'm not that, you know, and I get into this and I don't really want to. But if I don't sleep with that anybody, then they are sleeping around like not fair. So that imbalance I'm sure is super risky.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 56:12

My friend's number one point that he made was that a lot of people judge E&M because the experiences they've had with people they know in it is that it fails.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 56:21

But it's because they're, it's because the people they knew did it as a last resort for a dying relationship, and that that is almost never going to work because it's just pouring gasoline on a bad, on a relationship that's failing, and that this, this, is something that needs to be done in strong relationships, or between two people who have probably, like, who at least have definite interest in it, or or like, demonstrated experience with it, because it's just, it's a lot of work and it's it takes a lot of finesse, and if you're, if you've, if you've got a relationship that's failing, you probably don't have two people who are communicating really well. So how are you going to introduce something that entails a shitload of communication? It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah, and so if one person wants it but the other person doesn't, we're already starting in a really bizarre place. Yeah, yeah, I mean we haven't even talked about like polyamory, which is like having multiple relationships at the same time.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:23

I think we should do that in the other episode.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 57:26

That's something that's gotten a lot more mainstream and it's super interesting and it's, you know, all of this is like putting names on things that have already happened, right, that now is just like normal, right, it's like we've had multiple different kinds of relationships, maybe not sexually, but like, yeah, I go to you for certain things, I go to Alex for certain things, I go to you for certain things, right, we go to our different support network for different types of relationships and types of emotional support, like emotional intimacy and, you know, shared activities, whatever.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 58:07

But now now we have now that's like more accepted in the traditional relationship and I think that the my questions are always like well, what is it like to raise a family like that, you know? But I mean, I was raised in a blended family. Right, are always like well, what is it like to raise a family like that, you know? I mean I was raised in a blended family, right, like I'm, I was raised just as much by my stepmother as my other parents. So, you know, all this is like more normal. We just put names on it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 58:37

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just I have so many swirling thoughts, like one is I think E&M provides the opportunity to have a true soul bond with your partner because you, you just have to, you just have to communicate so much, you get to know them so much, you get to prioritize each other's needs in a really new and different way. Um, and that's pretty incredible. And it, and it also and I think in polyamory in particular assumes that your partner doesn't own your body, it doesn't own images of your body, doesn't own what you do with your body, that there's a sense of autonomy where it's like, okay, well, you know, we're doing the things to protect our union and our partnership, but ultimately, like, your body is your body, your feelings are your feelings, you know, like, if what you value is is continuing this partnership we had to talk about what that means and how to do that but but also there's some understanding that you're your own, truly your own, person, and I and I think that's especially true in polyamory, where you can have multiple relationships so that's all cool. On the other hand, like I don't know that I would want to talk about my relationship to this extent, because it can really bog you down and imagine that you have all these extracurricular relationships but your primary one is the one where you have to do all the talking.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 59:53

When is there time to have fun and relax when you're just constantly having to be like okay, so I went on a date with Sarah last night and you know like this is what it meant. And I went on a date with Sarah last night and you know like this is what it meant, and, oh my God, now I'm feeling jealousy and I'm feeling insecurity. Now we have to talk through that. It's like Whoa, depending on the partner, some partners might be like Ooh, compersion, hell yeah, let me talk about it. Like, tell me about it. You know, did you film it? Let me watch it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:17

Like this will spice up us, but that's not it for everyone. When you're dealing with jealousy and insecurity, and especially you're talking about blended like, about families. Imagine imagine being pregnant and your husband's going out and fucking some other chick. Imagine being postpartum. I cannot. I cannot imagine dealing with body image issues and a baby and, worried about this, my husband going out and screwing some like firm bouncy boobed 25 year old chick.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:00:53

This is interesting because it's really highlighting for you what the value is. Is like value is for your relationship. Is him looking at you in a preferential way? Yeah Right, being like you are the most beautiful value to be clear yes, the value you have would be special.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:01:13

Um, but for for other people like they might want the peace that comes with their husbands not being sexually frustrated, Because if they're like I feel like this I know he's going to be a good father, he's a good husband, but I just don't want to feel the pressure to have sex all the time. So go and do your thing and come back and be the best husband you can be. Right For them, that might be like even better than just like fine, have sex with a bouncy young girl, whatever. I don't have time for this shit, right right, yeah, it could decrease guilt um I think we're talking ourselves into like being into open relationships.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:01:56

I think, like now I'm talking myself out of it. Next episode I will share how it goes. Talking to alex about opening up the relationship do you?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:02:07

do you really and you think you would do it? I mean, what are? Yeah?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:02:09

I would. I mean, I've talked to him about I mean we've always like we're so new, so it's like we've we got together and then we got pregnant and then we got a baby, and then we had cancer and then we right with this, a, lot, of, a lot of stuff in our relationship. But I've I've talked to him about, like what would it be like if, down the line, like, we explore? I think that I would want to explore with him. I don't know how I would feel with him going off and doing other things, because I think the my main goal for that would be to increase my intimacy with him. It would be like to see that side of him and discover that while we're both engaging in a sexual relationship or something I don't know, I haven't thought about it that clearly I'm thinking about this out loud as we speak. So this will be a good template for our conversation with my husband. So, but I, yeah, I would be open to it. I mean, marriage is long, man, like life is long.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:03:03

I can't believe we have so many years left.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:03:06

I'm like, yeah, I mean, this is why I really hope we can get a guest here, and I've asked a friend of mine, but I imagine she has to think about it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:03:15

Um, polyamorous friends are more shy to talk.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:03:24

Yeah Well, because of all the judgment, all the judgment which sucked, because I I in some ways I respect them more than monogamists, and then it obviously depends on the people, but I do, I guess. A final point here is like the community aspect. I would think so. The the people that I found struggled less with like lived in New York. I don't have that great of a sample of like people outside of New York, but seeing it happen it's been hard. And I think some of the reasons are like, when there's a community like the one that I was adjacent to in New York, there was a lot of like almost swinging going on. Where there were, it was like there were known entities within the community and they would all kind of date each other all the time. And that solved a couple of problems. One is that they had a bunch of role models and examples of other people doing this. So it wasn't just the lone E&M couple. It's surrounded by a sea of monogamists which would feel very lonely and you'd have to justify yourself constantly. So that was one problem.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:04:32

But I think the other problem is what my friend pointed out is like one thing you have to be prepared for in addition to communication is the differences in what you'll be able to pull in, because women are going to be able to pull in many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many more dates than men are, especially with like online dating going on.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:04:50

He's like there are tons of men on the dating apps looking for flings because duh, and so you know, like his girlfriend can just go on and, you know, just rifle through all of her choices and just pick one and know that there will be 50 000 others that she can go for. But with him it's like a desert and so I would assume for a lot of men they're like oh, relationship, like I met girlfriend, I can fuck a bunch of other people too nice, it's like no, you are actually most likely putting yourself in a position where you're watching your girlfriend fuck other people and you have to wait a very long time cool, so actually this is gonna favor us but if you're in a community, right, there are like there are like women there who might be willing to touch your penis.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:05:41

So you know, you know it's just like right.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:05:45

And then there are sex parties right, where there's like, okay, you know our community, we have parties where we can go and like, explore this, explore kink, explore other partners, like, explore a way to connect with our partner in a different way, in a kinkier way, in a voyeuristic exhibitionist, whatever the case, like swinger, whatever the case may be. So there's just a lot more infrastructure there for these relationships, which isn't to say that if you're like a New York polyamorous or M person, that you definitely want to be in like one of these particular communities I wouldn't, because I I hate communities, but for a lot of people it works, it works very well, versus being in missouri like our, our fan here, um, I don't know, it would just. No, maybe there is. Yeah, I hope, I mean, I hope so, like it sounds like she's making something work, but I just I bet it's a very, very different dynamic I just bet in smaller cities that you know you just run the risk of there's just like a few well, unless Missouri's not a liberal state.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:06:46

So there's that, yeah yeah, how do you get, how do you get into, how you find these communities asking for a friend?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:06:53

um, because what happened was when I was I don't know how to do it now when I was. This all goes back to that guy I told you about in the career episode, who found me when I was 17 and he was 30 and like tried to groom me. Yeah, he was, he was Polly, got it, and so I met people through him and then I got into OKCupid and OKCupid was a hub for them.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:07:17

And so I just kind of naturally met people that way and then that got me into the community. Then I met my boyfriend and I was like going to these parties and I met, you know, other people that way. So I was like I was like pretty much in the know for a period of time. It just wasn't for me. Okay, so I just do.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:07:35

I want to give some tips from my friend for how you know this can, for how you know this can, how this can go better and like basically, pitfalls to avoid. So one thing he said is that, like, opening up a relationship can be an amazing way to strengthen an already strong relationship, right, so communication's good, but going too quickly can alienate your partner. So you want to go really, really slow and check in and take care of each other and if you imagine doing this right, like you're in, you're in this relationship it's been monogamous and you're like, okay, let's try this thing, and then you go out the next day and fuck a stranger. It's like that's a lot to take home to your partner instead of hey, like I'm flirting on online dating.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:08:19

Like here's my online dating app. Look at that, what do you think? And then like swiping together or kind of checking in about that, like flirtatious conversations. Check in, check in, check in. Okay, what emotions are coming up? How do we process this? Are we still interested?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:08:32

Um, every step of the way. Talk about it, yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:08:35

Yeah, um. And then he talked about the women and men thing, about how women can find dates much more easily, and then he said there's something called NRE, or new relationship energy. That fucks up a lot of people in relationships. So basically this is the dopamine cocktail. When you connect with somebody new, sexually or romantically, you can have these really strong, you can have an infatuation. Basically there's really strong feelings and that can throw everything into question where it's like, oh my God, this infatuation, I idealize this person. They're amazing. What if I actually want to be with this person instead? I haven't felt this way for my partner in years. What does this mean? And that's a threat, right? So you kind of have to be aware that that might happen, that's normal, and that it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't mean that that's how it would continue to feel.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:09:29

Interesting.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:09:31

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:09:31

Wow, wow, that's. That's also also really useful for people who cheated and then they go oh, wow, now maybe I fall in love with them. And then you hear that they're you know, go with that person and then we're you know, go into a regular relationship. That's so interesting, that's really interesting. I love those tips.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:09:53

That was yeah, thank your friend yeah, um, yes, thank you, friend, that was, and he was, like he's one of the most brilliant people like on this topic in the space, and so I love hearing um his thoughts and actually I think like kink could be another episode that we do at some point too, and how that can influence all of these dynamics.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:10:13

Um, but for now I hope that was a decent primer on enm and different things to think about. Um, hopefully we'll get you a guest who actually lives this lifestyle soon. Maybe that guest is Kibbe in six months after she and Alex have opened up their relationship.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:10:29

I'll do it for the podcast.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:10:30

All you guys. That is a really going in eyes wide open of why you're doing this. Very intentional, yeah, communicate with you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 1:10:40

I don't know about our personal life. All right, yeah, communicate with you all right.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:10:46

Well, we hope that you all are still monogamists and just only love us and only ever want to listen to us and just love us so much and would never like any other podcast better. And if that's true, please give us a five-star rating on apple podcast and spotify. It's okay, guys, even if you listen to, just do it anyway. We'll know we can trust you. See you next week.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:11:11

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