Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey, little helpers, today we have a topic that is probably relevant to a lot of different people. The topic is defensiveness. In this topic, kibbe will help me explore my own defensiveness and figure out whether I am truly defensive, how I can improve and what we do like when we do feel like we need to defend ourselves but don't want to be called defensive. So this was inspired by a conflict I had with a friend. I'm not going to get into the conflict, but just thinking through my kind of emotional responses to it and how I actually responded in certain ways I think might work as an illustration of the kind of complexities of defensiveness and how we get to more of like a healthy defending of ourselves versus defensiveness. Kb, do you have a definition for us? No.

Speaker 3: 1:18

No, this is the kind of term that has been thrown around. It's one of those social media Now that I'm trying to get on this social media train everyone follow Kula Mind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D at Instagram. That you know. You see defensiveness everywhere. Right, Defensiveness is bad, but defending yourself and asserting yourself is good. So when are you actually defending yourself appropriately in healthy ways that social media is going to like, and what are the bad ways?

Speaker 3: 1:50

I guess the definition, the working definition we could go with, is when defensiveness is bad. It basically means that I think people are referring to when you are not taking accountability, when you're completely denying that you had any fault, or completely dismissing or invalidating the other person's perspective, or not responding in ways that are, I don't know, healthy or constructive, right, Like when I think of defensive, I think of like you know your hackles going up and you're just pushing everything away. Right, you're just, you're just justifying a way that other person, you're just like completely arguing against what that person is saying and saying you're wrong, um, whereas defending yourself. That almost feels a little bit like offensive. Like a little bit like offensive. Like, hey, you hurt my feelings and this is what you know. I'm pointing that out, I'm pointing that out so I can protect myself from your attacks.

Speaker 3: 2:52

So what happens if you are getting defensive and defending yourself against attacks Interesting? I did not have a good, clear definition. But defensiveness bad, defending good.

Speaker 1: 3:07

Well, I think what's tough is when somebody comes at me with criticism or accusation and wants me to fully just accept what they're saying, apologize and acknowledge their feelings, and I feel like the accusation wasn't fair or missed, misinterpreted me in some way, um, or didn't account for certain things, or was said in a mean way or something. You know something like that, like it would hurt you yeah, and it's because I used to be caught.

Speaker 1: 3:41

I used to be told you always have to be right. I used to be called defensive and I was like I've never, I'm not going to be defensive. I'm really hard at this. I'm never like I'm not going to react. They're wrong.

Speaker 1: 3:51

I'm not defensive well, no, I tried to acknowledge what they were saying and shift my behavior. Um and it. I did succeed to the point where, like Zach, my advisor will frequently say, like thank you for your open, non-defensive response. And then even another supervisor of mine at Duke she even sent me and she like criticized me, and then she sent me an email the next day being like thank you for how non-defensive you were and, like you know, open to feedback. So, like I've succeeded in some areas, what did that look?

Speaker 3: 4:28

like and what, what? What did you? How did you respond? In a way that was non-defensive.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Okay. So I'll give you the other supervisor example. I I turned in a report for a potential egg donor, I think, and she said that she gave me a pretty harsh criticism. It wasn't like mean, but it was something like Only Like this is worse than like 90% of reports. I see something like that. Like it was rough, uh, and I I did have a bit of a defense, but I said it very meekly.

Speaker 1: 5:19

I was a meek with supervisors, but I was just like, oh, okay, like how, how should I have done it? And like, okay, I was asking a lot of questions clarifying what she would want. Part of that was like the more questions I can ask, the more I can regulate the tears that are happening internally. Um, but yeah, I wound up being like, you know, sounding very curious and like not, you know, not protecting myself. I did get to explain like the report writing I've done in the past has actually specifically not wanted. She wanted like a lot of detail and the report I'd been trained to actually write them very like concise, like without a lot of detail.

Speaker 1: 5:58

Um, so that was me like clarifying things. So that was me like clarifying things. But yeah, I mean, with friends there's a more equal relationship and so I'm less likely to just be like okay, yes, I see Like I might be like, yeah, I hear you Like how would you like this done and could you say it in a nicer way? Or I just want to say like I've in the past, you know, done things. I've been asked to do things differently, I don't know. So I feel like I succeed very well in being non defensive sometimes.

Speaker 3: 6:40

Can you give an example of a time that you've been defensive and what was that like for you or what was going on?

Speaker 1: 6:50

Okay. So KB and I were talking about this like before this episode, so we clarified that, like when I'm criticized, I feel instant bad shame, like it is just it. It like instantly spreads over my body. Um, I feel like constrict, like my breath is constricted, like I immediately I can tear up Um and sometimes that can move into anger. But I try to be really mindful of that Um, try to be really mindful of that Um. But I think in response to I mean it depends like sometimes, because I'm trying not to be defensive, I will just sort of have a really neutral face and just get kind of awkward Um. Other times, if I feel like there's an accusation embedded in it or there's a there's a misconception about me embedded in it, I will try to clarify.

Speaker 3: 7:56

But I I I feel like I do apologize and try to acknowledge what they said first, but then be like okay, but also here are these other things, yeah, and I could see the elements of what you're describing. I mean, I kind of know the details of it a little bit more, so I think it's a little bit more nebulous, I guess. But when someone is defensive in the bad way it's, it is from that reactive emotion of like anger and shame. It's a little bit more like it's a little bit more like an emotional block. Right, it's just like.

Speaker 3: 8:40

No, I'm just arguing against what you're saying and in ways that might be like completely denying that other person's point of view and also maybe sometimes to hurt them back. Right, like, maybe defensiveness just has a connotation that you're just like like jabbing back without actually taking in with the other person or moving into a constructive like oh, I'll do better, I'm sorry, like apologizing and taking accountability. I think that's tough when I think what you're, what you're pointing out, is that when you either perceived or actually get this, if someone has, like a shaming aspect to it or like, uh, this is a thing about you which you and I have had before, right, like I've snapped at something that you did, but it included some like character level attacks, right, like subtly or whatever. And then then your defenses go up and you get defensive which is like but wait, here is why I did that wait, you know right um, instead of you shifting to like oh, I'm so sorry, what's going on with you?

Speaker 3: 9:55

you're like wait, I'm not this thing that you're accusing me of. Here are examples of how I'm not this thing that you're accusing me of right. So I think you're right that, like character level criticism versus criticism of your behavior would lead to a defensiveness versus like a defending position for anybody, not just you.

Speaker 1: 10:18

I guess I don't think that's the wrong approach either like if you're getting a character attack, then it's kind of like okay, well, how dare you affect, you know, attack my character and like I must, you know, I must now defend myself because it's hard. It's hard. I think the dilemma is if you are told something about yourself, like if your intentions are described to you, for instance, I mean this is why we say in dear man, do not tell them what their intentions were like, do not make assumptions about why they did a thing, or you know who they are, whatever, then that person is like, well, fuck that. I mean I'm not gonna let that right because you can't, you can't accept it, because in accepting it you would accept a character attack. Um, and that's not something you want to move forward in your relationship with. You know, like you don't want to create an understanding that, um, like ADHD examples like that you've kind of like been upset with me about.

Speaker 1: 11:14

If you make a character I'm making this up If you make a character attack and you say something like you're just such a thoughtless person, you know like you don't care about me at all, um, but I it was just like distractible or something that I don't want to move forward with the, with the agreed upon assumption that I just don't care about you or that I'm a thoughtless person, so that feels like something necessary to clarify. Um, but it's tough, because it's really tough when, especially if somebody has an issue, they've been hurt and then they bring it up in a way that then causes hurt in the other person. It's like, well, shit, now we've got two problems and neither of them are necessarily being addressed.

Speaker 3: 11:55

Yeah, there's a lot of talk now about how important it is to take accountability. If someone's coming up to you and accusing you of something or expressing hurt or something. It's especially when it comes to like all sorts of like levels of respect and power, and you know all the kind of things that have been brought up recently in our culture about, like, if someone's been hurt systemically or or you know, like microaggressions or something, and then they bring it up to that person, that other person's response should just be like full accountability and apology and apologetic and any kind of defensiveness around it is like terrible, yeah, um, which does make sense in some ways. But I think you're right that the way the person there's less attention to the way that person brought up those hurt feelings because there's so much language around that person's a toxic person. We just did this on our last episode Like, this person's a toxic person, this person's racist, this person's ignorant, this person is inconsiderate, they're oppressive, right, there's all these labels that are attached to behaviors and you know what.

Speaker 3: 13:18

It might even be true, right, the person might be toxic or racist or whatever. But then if you go to that person and say hey, you're racist, you were racist you were. You know that person is going to have to what they're. They're stuck between saying yeah, I am racist or saying I I am. Oh, the thing that I said is not what I meant. Like I or I didn't mean to hurt you, right. It just leaves them in a place of like having to just accept that character attack.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:54

Otherwise they're wrong.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Yeah, it's kind of a, it's kind of a neat tangent to go into the political sphere right now because, again, exactly, I think we're seeing a shitload of defensiveness from people who were told you know, there's a whole bunch of people who are rightfully hurt, but we're going to give them permission to make character attacks and tell you who you are and then tell you you're not allowed to respond. Like that's just never going to fly. And I think it's tough when you say like that, you know another person can't be defensive when your offense strategy is kind of shit. So that's part of it. It's like, well, what do we do? You know, I'm like happy to acknowledge feelings and like adjust behavior to the extent that I'm willing, but if there's something in the offense that doesn't land with me in the right way, then like I don't know how to address it without then being accused of defensiveness. So yeah, I mean what I?

Speaker 1: 14:54

What I tried was to clarify things, and I think the risk of that is that it can move you away from the original point. But I also don't know how you don't do that. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 15:14

Yeah, I mean to not go into the details of the current situation, but like, like, let's say um, yeah, let's say, for example, like our, we had a conflict over um. I had was freaking out about the cancer diagnosis and you were asking for help and I couldn't be in a place where I could help and also I couldn't tell you why and I was super sensitive to the my deep core fear that if I'm not like helpful or people, or don't respond to people right away, that they're just like going to reject me and they're they're not going to care how I feel about that, going to reject me and they're they're not going to care how I feel about that.

Speaker 3: 16:10

So, like in in the moment when we, when we talk through it, let's say and I'm saying this is not a criticism, so don't have to get defensive over- this but like when, if I'm trying to, if I'm saying, like I said, I said something, I was like, oh, this is not a not about you, essentially Like, why are you paying attention to only like your feelings and it's not the most you know important thing? And then you got hurt and withdrew. And then, when we talked about it, if, if it was focused on, if, you would naturally defend yourself, like, oh, I thought I asked you about that, I approached that the way because of this, and I thought this and blah, blah, right, um, then that's that almost like leaves. How do I?

Speaker 3: 17:04

I'm trying to make a succinct point, but there's just so many layers. Then it does take the attention away from my hurt feelings, right, like. It just kind of like says well, I acted this way because I had all these other things going on in my head, or you were acting this way because I had all these other things going on in my head, or you, you were acting this way. That right. So it's just when you get into a back and forth, it does draw the attention away from the initial hurt and anger that I was feeling in that moment. Right.

Speaker 3: 17:41

Appropriately so, because the way I expressed it was not effective. Right, but if I still but, if I wanted you to take in something that was feeling or feeling hurt, I would have to make it.

Speaker 1: 18:02

I would have to express it in a way that was less character attacking, yeah, I mean. Well, for one thing, it's difficult to validate feelings if I don't, if I feel like they are based on an incorrect presumption, you know. So if you were saying, like I'm hurt because you didn't care about me in that moment, then it's hard for me not to say it's not that I didn't care about you, it's that I didn't know this was going on with you and I had a totally different perception of the situation, right. So it's like it's tough because I don't want to validate something that's. I mean, your feelings are real, but they're based off of something that is not what's going on, because I don't want you to think I don't care about you, like that's not, that's not what was happening. And so if you're hurt that I don't care about you, then I need to like clarify that, like that's not what happened.

Speaker 3: 18:42

You know what, like that's not what happened. You know what I think? Like a super masterful move that would have something that probably I was like through, like the pain that led to me lashing out at you, for you to almost prioritize that over how shitty I was in that moment yeah, which is unreasonable. For example, like I was like in a deep state of panic and I said mean things and like a super non-defensive response would have been like gosh.

Speaker 3: 19:28

Like you're right, the the thing that you said to hurt my feelings like pales in comparison yeah right and almost like that would make me hopeful, that it's almost more like immature on my part, that the way I express that pain would be overlooked, considering the gravity of the pain and the severity of the pain. Yeah, does that make sense? Like like me lashing out and being shitty around the time that I have cancer, like should get a pass for me, right, and you and my friends should be like oh well, she didn't, she was a terrible friend or she acted all these terrible ways, but, like you know, given what she was going through, it makes sense, right that that? What does it say about defensiveness?

Speaker 1: 20:18

I don't know, they're just going into my feelings now, but I'm not noticing any shame in myself, but I'm already noticing like, but I thought that that is what I eventually did, but then I think more. So I'm already noticing this urge to like, clarify or like, because, in a way, like you're not wrong, like yeah, I mean cancer did trump, that, it did explain everything, um and.

Speaker 3: 20:43

But it is hard when also it's it's just hard to be a punching bag and figure out like okay, like, how do I like deal with the person and like yeah, it's a person punching me yeah, no, and that's ultimately why we resolved it, because I feel like we did talk about like that, that conflict, in that moment, but then I did feel like you were like showed up as my friend. You know past that, that point right.

Speaker 3: 21:12

So yeah I think, if I think if your focus stayed on that, then that would have been like man, she's just so defensive that, like me, lashing out during a time of need, like you like, would collapse into that shame and only thought about that. That would have been tough, because then then it's then, when someone is really really defensive and really rejection sensitive and sensitive to criticism, it makes it hard to bring up things in a, in a, any kind of concern with that person, because then you're like I, you almost kind of treat them like fragile, right. You're like or walking eggshells around them trying not to upset them, which kind of, because if you upset them then they either lash out or withdraw and then you lose the relationship. So sometimes when people are really rejecting, sensitive, you end up being like almost coddling their like, protecting their ego in a way that doesn't feel like an equitable relationship. So I think that's the tough part about defensiveness is like it does almost change the power balance, right, for sure, it does almost change the power balance right.

Speaker 1: 22:26

Mm-hmm for sure. Yeah, this is just the dilemma I'm left with. You know, I, if I do experience like really quick and intense shame, then I feel like my only choice is to internally regulate. That that takes time and during that time I tend to shut down a little bit and I'm trying to maintain presence. But it's difficult to do that perfectly while regulating. Like it's difficult to lean into like with the supervisor. You know I lean in like curiosity. Technically I wouldn't say that I was necessarily feeling very curious. I just, like you know, trying to behaviorally be curious, um, but I think you know, when, like friends bring up something, what they might get is like me getting kind of quiet and awkward because I'm trying to, like you know, trying to regulate and they are pick up on that and understand that my feelings are hurt and they're not going to bring things up.

Speaker 3: 23:35

But I don't know what to do differently because I can't just I'll automatically like make that emotion just disappear I think that the defensive if you had a defensive reaction that had problems with, I would be afraid that if I bring anything up that it would really threaten the relationship. I think that's where unhealthy defensiveness is a thing where it's like it's emotional, it's reactive. It it's so emotionally reactive that it blocks the reality of the situation, right like um someone going, oh god, it's all my fault, fine, I'm the worst. That that that emotional reaction is like ironically defend, like it looks vulnerable, but it defends against any kind of yeah change any kind of like you know what?

Speaker 3: 24:27

I'm so sorry I did this thing. It was crappy, I'll do better next time, right? That's like the accountability that people are looking for, but that's more of a guilt place. That's more of like I'm feeling guilt and I'm going to apologize and rectify. When someone feels shame, there's really nothing you can do except for being like, okay, I'll hide and I'll leave and or stop being myself, right? So I think the guilt shame level is is what makes a difference.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Yeah, I think one thing that makes it tough for me is like we know that anger is a secondary emotion to shame, and so I'll often get mad at accusations or something or criticism, and then I have to be like I have to get real honest with myself and say is this shame or is this justified anger? Um, and that can take a while too, because and and but sometimes that can. Sometimes I think it is justified anger, but I tell myself it's shame and I'm not allowed to get angry, and so then I'm, then I don't defend myself in healthy ways. It's just such a rat's nest Like if someone brings up a criticism, if they don't do that well, then defensiveness is probably going to come.

Speaker 1: 25:53

But they can't always do it perfectly. Their feelings are hurt too, and it's a complicated thing to come at somebody and criticize them and that's a scary thing. And so how do we navigate this thing where, like the person receiving the criticism, the criticism is like well, that was an ineffective way to come at me, like I don't feel, like I can ignore that. Um, I guess my strategy has usually been to like validate and apologize, but then also address all the other stuff, and that doesn't seem to be welcome all the time.

Speaker 3: 26:30

Mm-hmm, I think my mind is still stuck on the shame-guilt difference, because this is not about you. I'm just now just kind of puzzling over this If I'm at a place where I feel like, where I jump out and say like a character attack. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:51

Right, like I did with you, I that is a product of bottling something up or or assuming that that behavior is part of their character. Right, it's not just like if, if someone does something that pisses me off and I'm just like, oh, you did this thing that hurt me, but if I'm just like this has been happening over and over again, I feel powerless to change it, or they or I. I assume that person's not willing or not going to change it. Now, here I am. Here's my anger about it. You do this thing and you are this thing. Right, that's, it's beyond like you did something. Hurt me is that you've hurt me like this so many times that I feel like this is just who you are now and then that other person has to just like, then somehow take that character attack and do something with it.

Speaker 3: 27:45

That's healthy, you know. So it just it leaves. What is the solution? The solution is to talk earlier about this stuff, which that was like.

Speaker 3: 27:56

The conclusion of our conversation was like next time something comes up like, say it because I don't know you need help, until you're like at a breaking point right right, because when I'm at my breaking point, I've gotten in my head that, like no one cares and no one's going to help me and I'm totally alone and no one gives a shit about me. Right, I've gotten to like character level everyone and everything doomsday. Right, instead of like earlier on, like this distinct thing that happened hurt my feelings. Can you do something different next time? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:30

Yeah, yeah. I mean we're almost in the mode now of like how do you go, how do you offense, instead of how do you defense?

Speaker 3: 28:38

Yeah, I think part of it is like you know, it's really the other person's fault if you're defensive.

Speaker 1: 28:46

That's what we're saying yeah I mean like people are gonna get defensiveness in the face of, like healthy offensives too.

Speaker 3: 28:57

Um, we got that what do you think that in this, in this current conflict, that you were feeling that, in this, in this current conflict, that you were feeling like do you feel like a character, character attack in there? Is that because right now, I think what we're kind of stumbling on is this hypothesis or like this kind of conceptualization, that defensiveness is going to come up when you feel like shamed, right and like with a character attack and so you naturally feel like this shame, anger response no, I would feel a shame response too in a situation where I would be more, it would be more appropriate to feel guilty, like people can bring up a legitimate thing in a nice way, and I might still feel ashamed.

Speaker 1: 29:41

I just I hope I mean, yeah, I don't think that I insult back or I really don't like hurting people's feelings, so I'm not likely to say, like you said this to me, now I'm going to be a bitch, now I'm going to try to make you feel bad. Um, so my defensiveness is much more like uh, I don't agree with the premises and so I'm going to clarify and that and then that can distract away from, like, validating the initial point and then the other way it can come up is just me not like me attempting to regulate to the point where I kind of shut down and then again that other person doesn't feel validated. They feel like they now have to take care of me, but I think you know a lot of people will. They cannot. They cannot take the fact that something is wrong with them or that they are perceived to have done something wrong, and so they will find a way to annihilate the person making them feel that way, and that's true toxic defensiveness, you know, distracting with a whole bunch of other things.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Um, I, you know, but I I certainly like when I feel as if somebody else has perceived that I've done something wrong. I don't like that feeling. It doesn't mean that like shame, but it might mean that guilt is justified, but that's still tough. Um, I don't know. I mean it's, it's hard for me to know, because if I because I feel like what often happens is that maybe, even if they don't say what my intentions were, I might try to be like oh, it wasn't my intention to do that, like my intention was this other thing, but this happened.

Speaker 1: 31:20

And is that defensiveness or is it like trying to bring clarity to the situation? Um, cause, a lot of times I feel like I'm actually trying to make the other person feel better because, as I said with the whole, like you don't care about me, example, I don't want that to be the conclusion that we agree upon, right, I want it to be like okay, like I did this wrong thing and I'm really sorry, but like, just so you know it didn't come from the place that maybe you're assuming it did Like it, I, this happened because I was like overwhelmed with X, y, z or my mind was on something else, and I think that can be frustrating to people, because they're like, yeah, I don't really give a shit, just don't do that again.

Speaker 3: 31:56

Okay. So let's say this is. This is at risk of bringing up your defensiveness, but, but I mentioned it before, so I hope it's safe territory. But when you are focused on something maybe this is your ADHD quality or like whatever you are really focused on it, right. Like if it's a person or it's a thing that you want, you're like you. You you have like laser beams to it and I think that's sometimes where you show the most enthusiasm. But you have a lot of things it and I think that's sometimes where you show the most enthusiasm.

Speaker 3: 32:30

But you have a lot of things in your life that you love, but like that one thing will get your laser beam attention Right.

Speaker 3: 32:41

And so if let's say you're laser beaming and then it makes you like overlook something with us, or like plans or in some other way that you're like literally not thinking about, like, let's say, me or my friendship or whatever in that moment, then I'm going to say that maybe I would attack you and be like hey, what you did made me feel like you're really inconsiderate, you didn't consider me, you didn't value me, I felt like nothing to you or whatever. Right, and then for you, you know that you care about that person. You care about me, right, and you think about me or do other things that I might not even notice or take for granted, that you show like different kinds of care, but not in that moment when you're really focused on something else, right? So I think the tough part is like if you say, if I say hey, when you completely ignored me in that moment, like I feel like I don't matter to you, you're like wait a minute, I do look at all these other things I did. Right.

Speaker 3: 33:49

But maybe that maybe it's that needs to also be balanced with oh shit, I did overlook you in that moment. I was focused on something else and I really love you and look at all these other things I do to show you I care.

Speaker 3: 34:06

But yeah, in that moment I probably made you feel small and overlooked right right, like that kind of like adding in the validation, um, because if it, if it's just like, no, I do care. What are you being crazy? Like that kind of defensiveness and like completely ignoring that other person's perspective, then it would be like, well, okay, fine, then she doesn't see that sometimes she could be inconsiderate.

Speaker 1: 34:32

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:33

Does that make sense or do you feel just like totally defensive right now?

Speaker 1: 34:37

I don't feel defensive. No, I'm trying to think if that's I'm like, is that not what I do? Cause that's I feel like that's what I try to do. Maybe I'm not doing it effectively. It's so funny, by the way, because I don't experience myself as having this laser beam, but my producer on the Bachelor said the same thing. He's like you're like a lighthouse, whatever the light touches as your full focus, and then it's constantly shifting. Oh, that's so interesting.

Speaker 3: 35:00

And it's the things that that you're most secure in, and love might not get that laser beam right Like yeah like you might be talking I mean, we both have that quality in our friendship or both of us might be like obsessing or fixating on some goal or thing that we want, but like we're talking all day right, so that's like inherent to like clearly we're friends and clearly we value each other, but we're talking about other things. Yeah, so that might come across differently to other people, you know yeah, um, it isn't.

Speaker 1: 35:36

I mean, this is I think I've heard this too is that like, yeah, my focus goes to the thing that's not secure? And I I often do feel like I'm I laying not whack-a-mole, but like hug-a-mole, like with, if you know, like if friendships and trouble, it's like okay, my focus goes there, like something's going on. My focus goes there and I mean this is all. I have a lot of friends and I'm trying to manage a lot of friendships at the same time, and it's it's difficult sometimes to hear like hey, you're not battling amina Cause I'm like, oh, I'm kind of spread thin. Um, but like, okay, now that you bring it up, like attention.

Speaker 3: 36:18

I just have so many friends that are taking my attention but like it's really tough yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:23

I know that came across that way. I know that came across that way. No, but I think it's. I've thought about like what happens when I become a mother. I mean, you must feel like you don't have much attention to put into like your relationships, as you did before, and if there's a complaint then it's difficult because your attention is really going into.

Speaker 3: 36:48

Yeah, but you get a pass being a mom, cause if you focus everything on the kid, then people are just like, well, yep, that makes sense, right. But when you're dealing with friends, you know, I think like that might be why with your past relationship that was a point of contention, because you you'll be focusing on like a plans with someone else and then he'd be like what about me, you.

Speaker 3: 37:11

You didn't even think about me, because there are inherent expectations in a relationship that like that person's the laser focus yeah yeah, and I don't know, like maybe maybe the times when you've been collapsing into shame, you either like don't say anything and don't maybe say the thing that the person's actually looking for, which is, like I love you so much here is my laser focus. Now you've got it right, like that's what they're actually looking for. Um, but be getting caught in the defending like, but wait, you're wrong. Here are all these other ways I care about you ironically might feel even more invalidating, which is weird, because then you're kind of defending how much you care about that person. This is a convoluted episode and that's why we did.

Speaker 1: 38:04

It was because being accused of defensiveness is convoluted, because I'm kind of like, okay, well, if you tell, if you tell me I'm defensive, then I'm no longer allowed to defend myself and then I feel like I can't participate in this conversation. But if I can't participate in the conversation then we're not getting anywhere and then you feel more invalidated. But if I can't agree with the premises and I don't agree with the interpretations you're making about my behavior, supremacies, and I don't agree with the, you know, interpretations you're making about my behavior, then I can't validate it because then I'd be validating something that is a misunderstanding and so I don't know. I try to find something to validate. It doesn't work very well. But I understand if I point out like here are all the other ways that I show you I care, then they're kind of like well, shit, like I get. I guess she's saying I didn't have the right to bring up this thing that I'm upset about and she's pulling attention away from this issue right.

Speaker 3: 39:00

And then the person doesn't know how to handle their feelings of hurt in that moment. Right, right, like I. This happens in relationship all the time, where you might be in a partnership and you're showing each other like ways of loving each other, but if someone misses the anniversary, then it's like, oh, that really hurt and you don't care about me. And then if that person brings up the well, I do this for you and that for you, that for you, that for you then it's like, oh okay, so I should not be upset about this thing that hurt my feelings. So I think we're just layering on more complications to this.

Speaker 1: 39:37

Um, I know, because even with that example, I'm like yeah, because the person on the offense said you don't care about me, so that person's immediately going right I think the issue is the character attack right, that I think that it's really hard for people to come back from character attacks and not get defensive yeah and the.

Speaker 3: 39:54

The only thing that they can do is say you're right, I'm bad, I'm this crappy thing that you said. I will do better, you know.

Speaker 1: 40:08

But then like I don't know what, if okay. But what if it's even something simple, like, um, jason is caught up with work or something and he doesn't come home, and I'm like I, I was really hurt by this, you know, like I wish you'd come home, yada, yada, yada. And then his only response is like babe, I had no choice, like I I'm not making a character attack. I guess he could and I, but I am blaming him for something I'm not. What I'm not doing is saying God, I wish you were home. I really miss you. It just sucked. I understand that you were stuck there, but it just sucked for me Cause I, I just wanted to be with you, right, which would be very easy to take in versus like, how could you not come home?

Speaker 3: 40:57

Um, no, I, I, I'm still sticking on the shame versus guilt and like the building up, because in that moment, if you were, if he didn't come home and you got really upset, um, um, more often than not that was probably a series of behaviors, right? Unless there's something really special, like you made dinner, like a special thing and it was really a big deal that he missed that one thing. But usually people lash out and get like criticized or angry because it's a pattern of behavior. But then people on the defensive side defend their actions. In that moment they treat the criticism like they're dealing with that particular behavior, whereas the other person's like you've missed several dinners in a row.

Speaker 3: 41:59

I don't want to hear your excuses for why you missed it this night, right? So I think it's like it's up to both parties kind of figure out what the actual pain is coming from and to work on changing that pattern of behaviors and not like a, that pattern of behaviors and not like a. You are a bad, toxic person in general. But yeah, these things that have been happening, have been have made me feel really bad and this was the breaking point. This is really when I was like at my limit right is that on the?

Speaker 1: 42:39

is that, though, the responsibility of the person on offense to to explain that? Because if all he hears is I'm mad at you cause you couldn't, cause you didn't come home, and he's like I couldn't come home, then he's not going to validate that.

Speaker 3: 42:55

Um, I mean, maybe maybe on the defensive side the person is like take full accountability for that behavior, right, which is probably. I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. I didn't realize the impact that it was going to have. Maybe it was a misconception. I care about you, but it sounds like you've been upset about something like more than this or let's really talk about what's been hurting you, right Like that's something that maybe in this current conflict, you can do. It's like it sounds like you know there's been a lot of feelings building up or there's a lot of pain or feeling undervalued or something. And let me try to understand that and make you see how much I value you. But yeah, I mean, I understand how hard that would be if you're hurt in that moment.

Speaker 1: 44:03

Yeah, I mean I think let's go concrete for a minute to just give our listeners a break and talk about, like some examples of unhealthy defensiveness.

Speaker 3: 44:11

Right, okay.

Speaker 3: 44:16

So, yeah, delving into it. So I mean, I think thinking about this topic of defensiveness and we're trying to figure out what defensiveness is it made me think about the old psychodynamic version of conceptualization of defensiveness and defenses, which has gotten really out of style with common psychology, but I think it's really cool. So defenses, um, are different mechanisms, like now we call them coping, coping styles or emotion regulation strategies, right, it's like what happens when you have a vulnerability or something really difficult and what do you do about that? How do you respond to that? And there's two different broad categories primitive defenses and mature defenses.

Speaker 3: 45:09

And it kind of looks like what you imagine like primitive defenses are really immature and mature is like really mature, and primitive defenses are like, if you really look like emotion dysregulation, if you feel like you cannot handle those feelings or the reality of those feelings, and you're really just trying to block that out as much as possible, you're trying to deny that reality and that really looks like denial, projection, acting out, regressing, getting super aggressive, right, it's like, would you imagine a kid is like now like it, just they do not want that to exist, right, but then mature defenses are like that could still be painful, whatever that thing is, but you channel a sublimation channel in different ways or use humor, or rationalize in healthy ways.

Speaker 3: 46:04

I really understand it. So I think, when we're talking about like, what does it look like to be defensive in a healthy way? I think it's a version that like takes in the reality, and both realities, yours and that other person's, takes in the reality of both, of the way you feel, and then goes from there Right and it's able to hold those, all those things without having to be like no, no, no. I must block that out because I cannot tolerate that.

Speaker 1: 46:37

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm I'm leaving still pretty much as confused as coming in, but one thing that I'm going to try to attend to is to make sure that I am holding along with my own.

Speaker 1: 46:51

You know, along with, like, if I feel like I'm being accused of something not good, you know I can hold that irritation and need for likeifying that, but also recognizing like this person's feelings are hurt and that has to be platformed as well and so, no matter, like, if I think it's like a you know, unreasonable or whatever the case is, like somebody I care about, feelings are hurt and that has to be addressed in some way, and if I'm genuinely giving care to that and like priority to that, then maybe defending the parts that I don't agree with can coexist a bit more nicely, because I think what happens with with bad defensiveness is that the person is just unwilling to accept the feelings that are being created in them and they are unwilling to lose any degree of power by submitting to the other person and their request, and so then they will deny or lash out, refuse to take any kind of accountability, turn it around on the other person.

Speaker 1: 48:09

Yeah, try to. I mean, I think the Darvo thing that we talked about in our narcissistic abuse episode right is like deny, don't apologize. I don't have these letters memorized, but like deny, don't apologize, reverse, so turn it back on them. And I don't remember V or O, but basically the idea is like wait for that person to do something that you can then pick out and make the problem yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:34

Darvo deny attack, reverse victim offender. So it was basically be like no victim offender. So it's basically be like no, I didn't do anything wrong. In fact, your reality and the way you remember it is wrong. You're the bad one and now you hurt me and you're the the the perpetrator of my pain. So just like, complete like, if someone goes, hey, I'm really hurt by the thing you said, it's like, well, now you are me and you're the worst thing.

Speaker 1: 49:03

Right, it's just like completely will negate what that person comes in, the first person who comes in here's the problem if the offender comes in with an the character attack, then that's gonna happen, naturally, like yeah, I'm not an inconsiderate person, and maybe not the attack part, but maybe the reversing of like like that thing I did to you, okay, but this is like real bad, like I'm not gonna, you know, let you install me this is.

Speaker 3: 49:35

I think that makes sense. I mean, I think that that emotional maturity which we'll talk about in a future episode, it's about holding all of the complications and the layers at the same time. I think we've gotten into the state where we talk about conflict and emotional conflict and defensiveness and criticism and accountability, all that stuff, with this underlying assumption that one person should have the space to have the feelings, like there should be one winner and that person's feelings is the most important thing and everything needs to like collapse and recognize that. But in reality, like I don't agree with that. But in reality, like I don't agree with that, like I think that if I'm legitimately hurt and I say it to you in a mean way, then you can be sorry for the way you hurt me and feel bad and ashamed or guilty and be upset and angry by the way I said it and all of like, and we should both have space to feel all those things Right.

Speaker 3: 50:49

I think it would be equally crappy if, like I S, I said things in a bad way and then it became all about how it made you feel and then everything else has to fade in comparison to that. That would be defensiveness in an annoying way, because then I'd just be like, well, I can't say anything because it'll be all about her a human, and say how I actually feel about anything, because it's just going to be all about that other person. So I just fade in the background and I'm just I'm just a spectator, you know.

Speaker 1: 51:30

Yeah, I mean, I think the power thing is really important here, cause I think you're right that a lot of people come in and there's like there's going to be one winner and it's going to be me. Maybe the better way to go about it is let's make sure there are two winners. You know, like, how do I attend to what you're bringing up? And also, like how do I make sure that I'm not just sort of I don't know smacked with no like built, like generated understanding basically about these people? I don't know, maybe that's not always possible, but yeah, and it may not always be possible.

Speaker 3: 52:06

At the same time, I mean, I think it would be a a hero's journey to have to take in a criticism and be like I'm so sorry, let me treat you in the way that you want, let me attend to your feelings, validate validate. Also, I'm really angry by the, by the accusations and the shame I'm feeling right now, but here I am, like being in touch with your field, like you might have to split it up. You might have to spend one session or one conversation validating and then spend another session being like and, by the way, that was really hurtful the way you said it Possibly no, I mean, I don't disagree.

Speaker 1: 52:53

My mind immediately went to but what if you don't agree with the premises of the criticism? How are you supposed to do those in two separate sessions? I don't know.

Speaker 3: 53:04

It's so freaking complicated um, well, because then you're like, okay, maybe get to what it's quote really about. Like if you're, if you're sensing that it's not about you, yeah, or that, if there's something that's later layered on beyond you, like that person like, like what I was going through right, like I was going through some, like a whole host of life changes. So my tone and the way I said things and the way I was reacting to you was about way more than you right.

Speaker 3: 53:35

I just couldn't say it bad in the moment, right, I could later, so then that's something different. Then you could be like, okay, these accusations, like I don't agree with the accusations because it's not all about me but, let's address like what's going on with you and then later on be like and also the way you said, it really hurt my feelings how do you say that in a non-patronizing way?

Speaker 1: 54:02

the way what like if you like, if you like, just going back to that instance, like if you like, snap at me or whatever, and say and consider it, etc. How do I then say, hey, what's this really about without?

Speaker 3: 54:12

it first of all, don't do it by text yeah that's it. That's just right for everyone to just project all their stuff and like the argument that we talked about between us was on text yeah right.

Speaker 1: 54:27

So like we're, we're in our own heads when we text and the resolution was over the phone and the resolution was good.

Speaker 3: 54:33

I thought so it's just yeah, yeah, because when you're dealing with text like anyone's emotional emotions, narrow your attention anyway onto the thing that confirms your emotion. So your eyes are just going to go laser beam for the words that were like you know that confirm the way you're feeling and ignore the bunch of text that is not so. Do it in person, where you get to get like actual tone of voice and you could actually like talk through and clarify misconceptions in the moment. How would you do that? Well, I mean like so sorry, so sorry, you're feeling this way. I didn't mean to hurt you.

Speaker 3: 55:27

And then I think, if it's like I think this is like validation, like expert level validation If there's any kind of like emotion words in what that person is saying, like hone in on and validate that that and then maybe have a, then maybe ask an in-person conversation. It's like it sounds like you're going through a really hard time, like you know, judging by how heated this conversation is. I think we need to talk about this in person because I think that there's a lot going on here. And then I think that let's say how I would do it as a therapist versus a friend, I think that you would just let that person talk about what they're going through and, like, spend a few minutes just being like, wow, wow, I was really taken aback by what you said.

Speaker 3: 56:24

I'm so sorry if I hurt your feelings, but like, are you okay? What's going on? Has this been? Have you been feeling this for a while? Has there been anything else that that's been going on that I don't know about? Have I been doing something like like asking, like and being curious about their experience? And maybe you know, you could get a little bit more of like. Yeah, it's been really hard for me. I felt this and this and this, and then our interaction was just like icing on the cake. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3: 57:00

I'm not going to tell you what to do. I mean, I feel like when people are hurt, they're hurt, and like I think that we all just got to get better at explaining what we're really feeling without treating like treating the other person like the enemy and that's really hard when people are upset.

Speaker 1: 57:21

Yeah, I, just I, yeah. There's just this huge dilemma of like. When someone is upset and then the the way they express it is legitimate, like justifiably makes you upset, then you have to hold both, and that's just a lot to do. It is especially if you're just like if, if you're justifiable, upset actually trumps theirs.

Speaker 3: 57:48

Yeah, and you could probably say that in that moment.

Speaker 1: 57:51

Yeah, like my ex, for instance, would be upset about me leaving the house Right, and then like would call me a prostitute or something. It's just like you know, I'm not in a place where I can validate him anymore. I mean, that actually happened. I made a joke, you know, I made a joke, and then he told me I was a prostitute. So you know, in that case it's kind of like, okay, well, you know, now I'm upset.

Speaker 3: 58:20

Yeah right, and then you darbo'd up. I'm not kidding, yeah. I mean I think that you'd be like I hear you. I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings and you.

Speaker 3: 58:31

That's not okay to say to me right like I'm trying to think about how I do it with my two-year-old, where he's like tired or just is hungry or whatever, and then he expresses that by asking for his bottle of milk and then throwing it on the floor, spilling it everywhere and then getting mad because he wants a bottle of milk. And then we'll do that a couple times and eventually I'm like I get that, you're upset, I'm here for you, I want to help you and you can't throw the bottle on the floor like that, because that makes mama want to go away. And sometimes I walk away, right, sometimes you just get the bottle of milk and then he's just shot himself in the foot. Yeah, so he has to learn to be like you know, be a sentient, emotional human being. But yeah, you could be both. You could be like.

Speaker 3: 59:25

This is about setting boundaries, right, be like. I understand I hurt you, I'm really sorry about that and I really didn't like. Calling me a prostitute is not okay. It's really hurtful and that's not a way to get me to X, y, z or to listen to you. I need to like peace out for a little while because I'm so mad. Let's talk about it later. That would be like a superhero way to do it.

Speaker 1: 59:51

Not saying that I'm capable of that, but yeah that's what I would tell my clients to do right, right, yeah, I mean, I guess I'm, I'm think of like, okay, if you are in a position where you're hurt and you want that acknowledged, can you have the expectation that the other person will just simply acknowledge it without defending themselves? I don't know, maybe there's a way of expressing that hurt that's so effective that the other person won't feel any sort of defensiveness or feel any need for clarification.

Speaker 3: 1:00:28

I think it's the way we talk about interpersonal skills. I think it's about trying different ways of communicating it and seeing what's effective. And if you try in arbitrarily, let's choose three different ways and you're trying your best to use your skills that we talk about. Like you use, dear man, you're validating, you express your vulnerable emotion in healthy ways and you try to do all the things, things and that person still is defensive in the annoying way like collapses into shame attacks. You completely denies whatever, just like basically completely blocks your feelings, then then it's a losing game. Right, then it's the defense defenders position that you know they're. They're not doing their part.

Speaker 1: 1:01:23

Well, what about some tips for trying to not like, uh, elicit defensiveness? I mean first thing. I would say don't make assumptions about their intentions, Don't don't tell them who they are or why they did the thing, because that's immediately inviting them to correct you. Mm-hmm Um be I mean really dear man, but like I, you know, stick to your own feelings, immediately inviting them to correct you. I mean really dear man, but, like you know, stick to your own feelings and your own vulnerability.

Speaker 3: 1:01:48

Use I statements Say I feel like undervalued or dismissed or hurt by something that you did, focusing on the behavior, offering ways to change that behavior or what you want instead. If you are really good explaining your emotional state like I know that I am going through a hard time I am probably more reactive to things or probably more hurt by things than normal. I understand all these different ways that you are good right, like balancing. I don't know specific.

Speaker 1: 1:02:32

I mean, that's another thing. Dear man would say too is like keep you know, keep it very specific, um, because if you include a lot of other things, your message can get very confused and they don't actually know what to validate, which is one one thing that I faced with my conflict.

Speaker 1: 1:02:46

It's like I don't actually know what the ask is here or what I'm supposed to validate. I feel like there's a lot going on, there's a lot said and my attention is being drawn in all these different places, um and the you know, and so I think I think being really like you know, keeping it isolated to like a single behavior, might be helpful. Now, I think, if you notice a pattern, you can say I've noticed this has happened multiple times. Um, but it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough to just say like here are all these various ways that you don't value me. Um, fix it, because then that's also kind of inviting them to say, well, here's all these various ways I do value you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:29

So, we're talking about whether or not I value you, or is there a specific behavior you want me to change? And yeah, I don't know if that distinction makes sense to you, but if you get into a talk about like, do you value me or don't you value, do you care or don't you care, then the person's going to say I do care. Here's all the evidence for did you, did you remember to see this evidence or are you only seeing your own evidence? Um, but if you, every time you know you can say like I noticed this, I noticed you didn't do the dishes, I noticed we haven't gone on a date, I noticed you didn't call me on my birthday, like, if you can say that, um, when it comes up and be like one, one way that I really feel valued is that when people call me on my birthday, then it's like oh, okay, I know what to do, but if you hand them a pile of misdeeds, then that can feel very overwhelming for the other person and they're going to look for something to counter.

Speaker 3: 1:04:22

Yeah, kind of arguments, yeah, yeah, I think you're right, it could be one, or it could be one repeated pattern, the same thing, maybe, like you haven't called me on my birthday for the past three years, or whatever. But if you layer on you haven't called me for a birthday and then you didn't do this and you do that, that might be overwhelming. So, yeah, you're right for a birthday and then you didn't do this and you do that, that that might be overwhelming. So, yeah, you're right, focusing on a distinct thing that they can change and do differently next time and validate their perspective. Right, Like I understand you, you know you've got a lot on your plate, or whatever. Now, what? What are the tips for the person who is the defender?

Speaker 1: 1:05:04

Notice what's happening in your body. If shame is coming up, there's a very good chance it's going to switch into anger and you're going to want to blame, and so just kind of attend to that, you know, and if you notice that that's happening, it might be good to just take some time with your response so that you can let the shame die down a little bit and then, like, come out, you know, from it. So if it happens in person, just saying like I think I'm going to be better at this conversation in 10 minutes, um, try to keep in mind that what this person is really saying is I am hurt or something feels bad, and I'm actually making a bid to strengthen us because they're coming to you with a request, right, and that request was presumably meant to like strengthen the relationship. Maybe that's not always the case, but, um, try to keep in mind that you you want both of you to walk out with greater understanding and closeness and notice any urge to just like win, to win the conversation. Try to stay calm, you know like, stay reasonable.

Speaker 1: 1:06:21

You were telling me earlier that I might do this, I might over do this. Um, maybe not in the conversations, but in other areas. Anyway, I'm now. I'm just confusing the audience again. Um what else? How about?

Speaker 3: 1:06:33

this you can. You can acknowledge the kernel of truth. That is something that we talk about in DBT. A lot is take accountability for what's true. Like, even if it's a small part, you know, be like, all right, I said that when I didn't show up that night or when I didn't call you on your birthday. That was really inconsiderate. I mean, I'm sorry, yeah, yeah didn't come to, didn't call you on your birthday.

Speaker 3: 1:07:06

That was that was really considerate. I mean, I'm sorry, yeah. Yeah, I think apologizing for and honestly apologizing is not a sign of weakness, I think one. That power dynamic is like people might not want to apologize because they then they might feel like they lose the whole battle, but you could still be like I'm sorry for this thing that I did. You're right, I will do better next time. And also the way you're coming, like bringing this up with me, it's like really hurtful and I don't feel like I'm this terrible person that you're accusing me of. So I need to take a few minutes and let's talk about that, you know yeah yeah is that it?

Speaker 3: 1:07:48

yeah, I guess. Why don't you guys tell us? I know I kind of do want to know.

Speaker 1: 1:07:54

It's like what I just want to hear from you all about, like what, how do you, what are your thoughts? Because it's so, it's so convoluted.

Speaker 3: 1:08:08

Yeah, so please send us a message. You click on the message on top of the show notes. It says send a text. Just send us messages of what you think defensiveness looks like, what is healthy, defending yourself versus bad defensiveness and how people can work on this. Because, yeah, this is what we're throwing out there.

Speaker 1: 1:08:24

But I also just want us to know that Kibbe's original idea was to come on here and trigger each other so that we would get defensive and then have to work that out, come on.

Speaker 3: 1:08:32

I brought up a little bit about our stuff. You what? I brought up a little bit about our stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:08:39

She was like I tried to get you, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:08:43

Yeah, I was like I'm just going to insult you and let's see what happens when you feel defensive.

Speaker 1: 1:08:49

Kitty's very dedicated to this podcast.

Speaker 3: 1:08:51

You all are very lucky. Or I'm just, you know, masochistic, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:09:01

Just like drama, you know yeah well, I don't know, just like drama, you know. Yeah, well, I like drama too. I just not when it's about me. So, guys, don't make us defensive and give us bad reviews or no reviews at all. Make us feel perfect and valuable and cared for by giving us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And we love your comments too. We'll see you next week. You Thank you. Podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:10:38

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