Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Little helpers, today we are doing an episode that I honestly cannot believe we didn't do years ago, given how fixated I was on it for most of my life and that is high school popularity. I did not know you were so excited.

Speaker 2: 0:29

I was like what's going on? You look a little.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Yeah, it's because you met me post-bachelor, which healed my wounds more or less. Yeah, created new ones. Yeah, created new ones. So we're going to talk about high school unpopularity versus popularity, read a bunch of research and then just, I think, just talk about our experiences and how it's affected us, because I thought for at least a decade after high school about how it affected me, did you?

Speaker 2: 1:01

I mean, I haven't thought about this in a really long time, so you will get my thoughts brainstormed and processed out live.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Yeah Well, anything you want to say about Cool Mind helping, if you have any.

Speaker 2: 1:23

If you have any. You know these emotionally challenging relationships or feel low self-esteem in relationships struggling in general with a loved one with a mental illness. We can give you skills and guidance for what to do, what to say to help your loved one as well as yourself the simplest way I can explain it. But yeah, so if you just want to learn more how we could help, have any questions, go to coolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and you could just book a free call with me to talk about what we do and how we can help you Cool.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Well, I wanted to do this topic because, I mean, just in general, I think it's really interesting, but I don't even remember how I thought to do this. But I posted a series of polls on my Instagram that were like, you know, if you were unpopular or specifically uncool I didn't mean necessarily like actively unpopular, like disliked, but like, if you weren't cool in high school, does that affect you today? Weren't cool in high school? Does that affect you today? Um, I had another poll about that too, but I don't remember what it was. But basically, a huge number of people said yes, like people are still really wounded over this like uncoolness thing in high school.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Um, I mean, the research is interesting. I mean, I think like research again, when you have these like gradated questions like what is unpopular, is that like no friends? Is it like deeply uncool and disliked, or is it just like you weren't the popular group which was more me or me? Um, it's, you're going to have different answers, but like, essentially there are. I mean, there's like definitely still effects in adulthood of you know, like your popularity in high school can predict a lot of things about you, um, in adulthood, yeah, Bad news for you teens having a rough time, I know.

Speaker 1: 3:23

Well, it is kind of concerning with a, with the teen social experience being what it is today, which is essentially asocial, um, but yeah, I mean I think like so in general, you see, like if kids were unpopular and I think what the research was talking about was like actually unpopular there's going to be all sorts of negative effects like depression and anxiety, stress levels physical stress levels are higher for that population Lower self-esteem, lower social skills. It can be hard to tell sometimes whether this is correlation or causation. I mean, like there's one kind of pathway where it's like popular kids got a lot of social practice in high school, um, and so they had like an opportunity to develop social skills, um, and have like just like a lot of relationships, right, I mean, I didn't have a boyfriend in in high school, but I at least had some dating experiences that I was able to build on, you know, going into college and beyond Actually more so in Slovakia. But if you don't have that right, then like your first dating experiences might be in college and then they to be as successful as your peers who have already been dating. And then it gets pushed later and later and later and it becomes more and more of a struggle. So there's that aspect. And then there's this aspect of like identity development and self-esteem, which I'm pretty interested in, because I definitely think that my social status in high school like affected how I saw myself and you know how I would behave around other, like high status people, like longevity.

Speaker 1: 5:15

The result, like the effects of this, is when you are in high school. That is your first experience of having like a social consciousness that's more or less developed. You know you're pulling away from your parents and so your peer group becomes much more important and you don't have any other evidence about what kind of person you're going to become. So this is where that gets developed. So when I wasn't popular, I was like okay, well, all the evidence I have about myself is that I'm rejected by high status people. I'm like not cool I'm, I don't fit in in certain ways, and I didn't have any disconfirming evidence Like I later did through New York, the bachelor, et cetera, and so this can get like really cemented in people's minds and then influence how they see themselves far longer.

Speaker 2: 6:20

By the way, you look really cute tonight. So anyone you know, check out the YouTube episode version of this and look out she's wearing. She's wearing this nice little like plumping lip gloss or something going on.

Speaker 1: 6:33

You look really cute. Anyway, I just wanted to mention.

Speaker 2: 6:36

I agree with everything you're saying that when you're an adolescent like 12, I mean now, it's like even earlier for kids, which is crazy. The like adolescence age has like gone down a lot you know that Because they were going to puberty earlier. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:56

I'm guessing it's because of obesity, a range of cultural things, but that's the first time that you attach to figures that are not your parents, right? So it's like you are, I mean, if you think about it. Yeah, like what you're saying, identity is formed in our minds, like who we are is kind of like a mishmash of all these different experiences you've had in your relationships, right? Like, oh, my brother is strong and I'm less strong, or I'm loved, or I like people really like it if I, you know, are kind to them or really high, achieving whatever, right.

Speaker 2: 7:37

So we start to develop our idea of who we are based on our relationships, and that's such like 12 years old and up is such a formative time where you are like learning how to identify yourself in society and like your first partner right, your first like major love or crush happens and you start to like have attachment figures outside of your parents. So it is a really interesting, like critical time for figuring out who you are in the world.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Do you? When you think about how you saw yourself in high school, does it map on at all to how you see yourself now?

Speaker 2: 8:14

I, you know, I don't know because I, I think I had, I think I cared less about how popular I was. I think I didn't. I don't know if it was the function of my school being smaller or there was definitely like a hierarchy, but I don't think we cared as much. Um I, I definitely didn't think I was like one of the, you know, like the popular kids, like I didn't. I didn't identify that way, but I remember going to college and then people having a much different reaction to me, which is weird.

Speaker 2: 8:51

Like in high school, I don't know, people didn't really notice me or, you know, guys didn't think I was attractive and you know, um, I still dated someone, but it was only college that people started to treat me as like someone who's attractive and cool and you know they, you know there was such a shift. But I, yeah, I don't like I wasn't popular, but I don't think I cared in high school.

Speaker 1: 9:15

I'm always amazed by that I'm always amazed when people didn't care about popularity in high school. I mean, popularity was like I mean it wasn't all I cared about. I really cared about my grades too, but it was a huge thing for me. I pretty much got over it after my freshman year because I, I, I, I went after it a little too strongly and wound up getting rejected by like my major friend group and went into this massive depression. And then my sophomore year I was like, eh, this popularity thing not going to work out for me I don't like people enough for it to work out anyway. And then got good friends.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Um, but I it's funny like I remember I emotionally I think I saw myself as unpopular, but when I really look back on it I was probably just like a rung or two below the popular group. So I did fine and I think you know a lot of this research. That's the thing like a lot of this research is like this effects of not having friends on people. And that certainly wasn't mine. I think mine was just more like I felt I didn't have a certain status, because it's not even like the popular kids that I wanted to be friends with were like I don't think I was interested in them as people.

Speaker 2: 10:31

What did, yeah, what? What defined like is this a school thing Like where was there like a really clear cool group in your high school? And like what, what did it mean to be popular in your high school?

Speaker 1: 10:43

I went to a very classic American high school in West Virginia and, um, like, okay, so there were about 1200 students in the school overall, so 400 in the class. Um, and my school was very stratified because we I mean I lived in a town that was a university town in West Virginia, so there was like the poorest of the poor kids and then like the doctor's kids I mean we didn't have any celebrities or anything like that Like the Kibbe went to the gossip girl school. So that's a very different experience. Yeah, yeah, Um, I mean the football players cheerleader no, they had some like level of popularity, but I just I remember there was like a particular group of girls that just did not want to accept me, and probably because I didn't have that much in common with them and I just wanted to be, I just wanted to be seen like them.

Speaker 2: 11:49

Was it like, imagine, like Glee you know the show Glee and all those like movies was it really like they were rock stars and they could do no like do anything they want? Or was it just like you know, there was a group that was like the hot ones?

Speaker 1: 12:06

Yeah, just like you know, there was a group that was like the hot ones. Yeah, no, I don't think that. Honestly, looking back on it, I mean I wish I could go back in time and have a conversation with my 14 year old self and be like you're not missing out on anything, everything these people have. You're going to get in like three years and you'll be fine. I think my part of my issue is that I didn't go through puberty until pretty late, so I still looked very young until I was like 17.

Speaker 2: 12:30

So I mean, I think, what I?

Speaker 1: 12:31

wanted was I wanted boys to like me. I wanted boys to see me as a high value target.

Speaker 2: 12:39

Um so more about the sexual, like the, the, the dating, so more about the sexual, like the, the, the dating.

Speaker 1: 12:48

I think it had a lot to do with just like how I conceptualize myself. Like I was very I needed to be the best, you know. Like I had the same basic hangups with academics where I just couldn't get a four, oh, and I couldn't get into the Ivies and I couldn't get into Duke, and I was like I guess I'm just relegated to being above average and that was not good enough. And it was the same thing in the in, like the popular group. I mean I think to an extent like we grew up with all of these movies, these coming of age movies, all these high school movies with the parties and everything, and I wanted that experience.

Speaker 1: 13:25

I've always been such an experience junkie. I just like want to taste everything and like realistically, when I was a senior I went to parties all the time. They weren't those kinds of parties but in West Virginia who knows what we are holding anyway. I mean it's not like anybody had massive amounts of money. There weren't bands playing at any of these parties. I don't think so. It's kind of I mean, looking back, there was nothing I was missing out on, but I can definitely see how that shaped Like there are just some people that I will always feel uncomfortable around and when I went on the Bachelor it was like I mean, that was exact type of people I was terrified of. I was like I am not going to fit in. I didn't do well in a sorority in college, so like that kind of high status, like popular pretty girl who's just got all this confidence and like is a girl's girl, I just don't know what to do with. Or I didn't know what to do with. I think now it's somewhat different.

Speaker 2: 14:33

What were your thoughts and like obsessions or fixations when you were in high school, like when you were, when you were thinking about wanting to be popular or noticing this? Would you be like down on yourself or would you be trying to look what were like, fit in with them in some way, or oh, kibbe, this is so embarrassing but also amusing to me.

Speaker 1: 14:51

my first you should be my first year of high school, okay, so I in middle school I had these two best friends named sam and k. Okay, kate had been my best friend for a lot longer. Sam was kind of like somewhat new, but she was blonde, beautiful, blue eyed, doe eyed, like, came from an artsy family, you know.

Speaker 1: 15:17

So she just like looked she could take the best photos in MySpace MySpace was the thing you got 12 photos right and sam, that motherfucker always had the best 12 photos, so irritating, I was always trying to compete with her 12 photos. Anyways, we formed a quote-unquote sisterhood with our other friend, sarah, and, um, we did things like we made a bag out of denim, like the sisterhood of the traveling pants kind of deal, where we would like pass it around and we put secrets in the. We like wrote down secrets on paper and put it in the handle of the bag and then one of them tried to take her secret out and we fucking caught her. Anyway, put that secret back in.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Uh, we had these like matching shirts that were totally shapeless and looked stupid and we were like all wore them. They were like different colors, we all wore them and like so my, the cafeteria had like three levels and we like walked down the stairs, but in a horizontal line, like down the first level. Uh, it's pretty embarrassing, um, but anyway, we, sam and I, were kind of like the queen bees at first and I I was closer with both sarah and kate initially initially, but we all mean girls had come out the year before.

Speaker 1: 16:33

So we took our cues or at least sam and I did from regina, george and we. We changed our voices, we changed our affects. We just said bitchy shit to each other. If I look at my yearbook from back then, it's like I'm like circling people and being like that ugly, like how does she like blue, this guy? It's like terrible, like really, how did you?

Speaker 2: 16:58

talk back then.

Speaker 1: 17:00

I don't know if I could do it now but, I, don't. I'm sure I'm sure a lot of like that's gay, like that kind of stuff, whatever like a little fucker said back then. You know, I mean, I wasn't.

Speaker 2: 17:26

I was just. You're going to say something about your hair. I don't know that's hot.

Speaker 1: 17:30

I mean paraselticness like whatever we're just yeah we're just mean and we just talk shit about each other. So like constantly. And then like sam and I had the crush on the same senior boy and like looking like, why was he interested especially in me? Looking like prepubescent made no sense, but he was, anyway.

Speaker 1: 17:53

I far outpaced him in terms of hotness later. But we just like you know, oh my God, we I would like his name was John, I would like have a secret conversation with John, and then Sam would have a secret conversation with John, but we pretended like we were telling each other everything but then we would tell, like Kate or Kate or Sarah the thing. Then they would tell us and we'd get back to us and it was just this like whole square of nastiness and we all made out with each other. Sam and I made out with each other first and we like pressured Sarah into making out with us. I mean it was just absurd and I mean that was cool. Well, I got ousted, is?

Speaker 2: 18:32

the long and short of this no, I got ousted how did that happen? Like Regina George, yeah kind of.

Speaker 1: 18:40

I kind of don't remember how I got ousted. I think part of it was over the John thing. We were just talking so much shit about each other all the time that it was bound to implode. But what sucked was that I started out being closest to everybody and then I got ousted. And then Sam became the official queen bee and she got so good at MySpace and I was decent at MySpace, but mostly I was just copying Sam's MySpace and the top eight. This ruined my life. I mean, this was a huge component of my depression was we all played games with the top eight, you know? So like I'd be number one on Sam's and on Kate's, but then I'd be number three and I'd be like, why am I number three now? And they'd be like, don't be dramatic, it's just my space.

Speaker 2: 19:29

You know, that's why being a team now with Facebook like it's, like all that, all that social media to really quantify all.

Speaker 1: 19:41

I know that top eight was a motherfucker, though I mean I got. I remember I had this huge crush on this guy named Cody, who that was. That made no sense, but I was like number eight on his top eight for a second this is what I mean. When I was like a rung below and I was so shocked I was like, oh my God, he thinks I'm his friend, Like we're friends.

Speaker 1: 20:00

He never said anything about it and then one day I was no longer on it. I'm like okay, well, I don't know how to explain that phenomenon, but just everybody shifting each other around, you know who was their best friend that day. You know, if you're a little bit mad at a certain, you just shift them down One or two people and they'll notice. They'll notice. So Brutal, how old were you? How old was this?

Speaker 2: 20:21

I was 14 wow, that would have been crushing. Yeah, I one of my dad's old favorite memories of me. Um, he was so proud of this. I don't remember the exact, the exact event that he's talking about, but I do remember the general time. So there was a time and I had a rougher time, I think in like adolescence, because I was in an all girls school and yeah, it was just like a bunch of like strong willed, like you know, like 12 year old girls are awful, like to put them all in the same room for extended periods of time.

Speaker 2: 21:02

Yeah, they're just like, like it's brutal. So my dad said that the popular girls at some point. Well, it was really sad because I one of my best friends growing up, marin um, I hope I'm gonna make her listen to this, but she, you know, we were like friends, friends, friends, friends, where I like playing video games and all that stuff and then she started hanging out with a popular group and I really hurt because it was she just kind of like, was like and kind of blowing me off, and I was like you know, yeah, like my best friend was was leaving me, and apparently the popular girls came over to me and was like you know, we'll hang out with you or we just like give you a makeover, or something like that.

Speaker 2: 21:46

And apparently I said go fuck yourself. That was one of my dad's favorite memories of me.

Speaker 1: 21:54

Good, for you.

Speaker 2: 21:55

I don't really remember. I'm sure it was like more complicated than that and like girls speak back and forth, but I think I do remember just feeling sad that my friend was gone to them and just having no interest, but annoyed. I was just annoyed at, like you know, they're waving the power and they were like hey, kibbe, you know, basically like devaluing me.

Speaker 1: 22:17

I probably was like fuck you and you know, what was the, what was the social capital or the resource that you were all currying for in an all girls school, all boys schools?

Speaker 2: 22:46

but a lot of them would meet in Hebrew school. The big Jewish population these like New York schools, so they would all meet at like 13. And then start like kind of dating each other, whereas I didn't go to. Hebrew school so I didn't know guys. So my friend marin was like in hebrew school dating all these dudes and yeah, like she's just like that, probably like boosted her I'm so sorry, marin, that's the most new york shit I've ever heard.

Speaker 2: 23:15

That's so funny, but we, we just wanted power. I don't know, I don't know exactly what the like you just felt. The power amongst women. Yeah, like one thing was the attractiveness and ability to get attention, but it's also just like who could command the room, like who's setting the tone.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Right. So there's some really interesting research that looked at like curvilinear data. So it wasn't just like Basically, it was looking at like a range of popularity and not just seeing like a linear correlation, like you know, like, as you get more popular, you get more pro-social, or whatever it was like.

Speaker 1: 24:01

At what points in this range of popularity is, like, pro-sociality strongest, and so one of the comparisons they were doing was childhood popularity versus adolescent popularity and they found that childhood popularity was more associated with pro-social behavior. So they're nicer, basically, and adolescent popularity was less associated with pro-social behavior. Mid range, like average popularity was so like those kids were nicer, but as you got more popular was so like those kids were nicer.

Speaker 2: 24:37

But as you got more popular, you became more aggressive. What the hell did you just say, okay, like, let's bring it down if you were popular in adolescence. What happens if you are aggressive later on in adulthood?

Speaker 1: 24:47

no, no, if you were average popularity, average popularity. So, like me, you are more pro-social.

Speaker 2: 24:56

You're nicer.

Speaker 1: 24:56

You have lots of friends right, but as you get more popular, so the really popular kids, they're more aggressive, and that makes sense because they had to basically keep their power. They're more dominant, more you know like. This is how they have this sort of status, and this does seem to exist into adulthood. An interesting thing is that the least popular kids in adolescence no, I think this is actually childhood they actually then became more aggressive in adulthood, which isn't super surprising either, because yeah, um, but that was kind of cool that that is cool.

Speaker 2: 25:43

So wait, how do, how do we, how do we understand that?

Speaker 1: 25:48

if I were going to map on, if I were going to map on careers, the really really the really really popular kids would be ceos and doctors, and the middle, the average popular kids like me, would be therapists and teachers.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Like I, had a lot of friends.

Speaker 1: 26:08

I just didn't have status okay, that's what.

Speaker 2: 26:13

That's what the confusing part about this popularity question Is it a people who just like, objectively have more friends, or in a in a social hierarchy, yeah, or you perceive yourself, or this is something that you just say about yourself Like I felt popular or unpopular makes a difference. Like I wasn't popular, but I probably have the same number of friends as I don't know any other kid yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 26:43

So, as hypothesized, adolescent popularity was associated with powerful and forceful behaviors and status indicators in emerging adulthood, such as proactive relational aggression, dominance and influence. Popularity in childhood and adolescence was measured by asking longitudinal participants and their classmates to nominate who were most popular and who were least popular within their classroom so they had to rate who were popular, interesting. Yeah, they could nominate all classmates irrespective of sex or gender, but could not nominate themselves interesting. That's a good study I know that's a really good study.

Speaker 2: 27:20

Okay, all right, I'm in, I'm in. Um, yeah, I guess it's like what traits you develop, like to get power, and I guess that that makes more sense in adolescence versus any other time. Right, like, yeah, to really dominate, that's interesting and then have have that be like an aggressive quality.

Speaker 1: 27:42

I'm aggressive, but I, I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't popular you know, um, yeah, I mean it was kind of interesting, cause we all think of kids as kind of mean, but I was actually popular for a year in elementary school and I did not even realize it. I had a click. Everyone wanted to be in it. We rejected everyone, it was just for us four. And then this one girl, morgan. She went to whine to her mom and her mom was like my daughter's being excluded and we had to have this big like all the girls in the class had to stay behind during recess and talk to the teacher and the teacher was like there's a click here. That is not acceptable, it's over. Today we're disbanding it.

Speaker 2: 28:24

And it was my click oh yeah my goodness, it's so funny yeah because I think we're probably like equal popularity, but you seem to care a lot. You guys were very embroiled like you were. You. I could hear the social, the fighting, the fighting for the social hierarchy in your stories. I was just like I wonder if one of the reasons is that I had older siblings and I was constantly comparing myself to their success.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Like I saw, my brothers were pretty popular. Okay and so.

Speaker 1: 28:58

I was always on. They're, they're both very good looking in high school and they both I mean they both got cute girls. Um, yeah, I mean I just remember like I mean, charlie, charlie went to college when I was like 10, but they both had a lot of friends over, like andrew's friends were very clearly cool, like they had very relevant contemporary senses of humor, they listened to the right music, they wore the right clothes, they had a cute, cute girlfriend. I mean it was just, like you know, kind of apparent, um and and then my friends always thought my brothers were hot. They were always like talking about that. So I felt like I was in competition with my sister to be smart and then with my brother, andrew, in particular, to be popular.

Speaker 2: 29:50

Andrew in particular, to be popular. Oh so the real, the real high school popular unpopularity contest was in the Trumbull home.

Speaker 1: 30:00

Well, yeah, we had a lot of competitions going into Trumbull home. My parents put zero pressure on me to be popular. I mean my mom could not give less of a shit about that. She wasn't. I mean, actually she kind of was popular. She pretended like she wasn't popular. She was kind of popular in high school but she, like my mom, does not try to fit in with anybody, like if my mom was very take it or leave it with her. I mean, she knows how to get people to like her, but she would never have a vapid conversation if it meant being liked so what did what did it mean for you to, for you guys to be popular, like when, like who's you guys?

Speaker 2: 30:42

you, you and your siblings. What would getting popular mean? Is it the power or is it the? Is it the friendship? Because now that we're mixing, there's two different definitions. Right, it's like people liking you versus being on top which is very different.

Speaker 1: 31:02

yeah, I wanted to be on top. I had plenty of friends. What did top mean? Like what would that mean? I get invited to all the parties, like there was a conspicuous lack of for, for instance, valentine's Day there would be that. Did you guys have this? The carnation thing, where you could buy a carnation and like have somebody send it to your crush? Oh, that's fun. Oh, my God, I know I wanted that so bad. Every freaking Valentine's Day I'd be like is this going to be the year? Is someone going to send me one? No, I never did. I never got like secret notes in my locker or like anybody you know nobody from my school asked me to prom.

Speaker 1: 31:44

I mean I wound up going with my best friend, eric, who actually had another girlfriend. He went with me instead, but that's okay, I mean. Mean, it wasn't a romantic thing, it was just I had we'd agreed to it earlier. So, yeah, I just felt like I was missing out on a lot of like high school major experiences, markers, I guess, major events so then, what did it feel like to get the popularity during the bachelor times? Fucking amazing and also bad because I didn't get the popularity but I got.

Speaker 2: 32:19

Kevin and I were talking before this you were in the bachelor you, you still get that right?

Speaker 1: 32:24

yeah, no, I think it. I think it essentially healed this part of me. Um, when I first went on the bachelor I I had two thoughts, like two competing thoughts. One was like holy shit, I feel anointed by the universe, like I'm a special person, I get to be a special person. And then my second thought was there's no way in hell I'm going to last more than three weeks on the show, cause I was like I'm not one of those people. I'm not one of those girls Like the.

Speaker 1: 32:52

The casting agents are in their are in middle age and I've always done well with much older people. So where I actually started to feel cool was in college a little bit in Slovakia actually, because I was like the American exchange student who got a lot of attention and boys liked me there. And then in college, when I started going to New York and was fucking my boss, like that, you know, I was like I couldn't get into the best frat parties at UVA, but like I was like fucking a rich CEO. So I don't know, I mean that that was something.

Speaker 2: 33:26

I could hold.

Speaker 1: 33:28

Um so yeah, but I was like I was like the bachelor is the definition of people, I that do not get me and do not like me. And so I went on and, yeah, I wasn't the cool girl on the Bachelor, for probably multiple reasons. One was that I did not put myself front and center. But what I did experience was that actually most of those girls did like me and they were really cool to me Like no one sucked. And then Kendall comes, like you know, carrying like four taxidermied animals under her arms. So I was like wow, like who, who knew?

Speaker 2: 34:08

I guess these are all women who were different and owned it right, who are just like confident, confident in like being a little weirdo and being different, but also conventionally attractive. Yes, it helps. Yes, they're gorgeous women. Yeah, they'll help, uh-huh yeah like what.

Speaker 1: 34:28

Would it like to walk around afterwards and people be like she was on tv amazing but you have to like okay, it's so funny when people would apologize Like I'm so sorry. I'm sure you get asked about this all the time and you know my star is like it's basically completely it's like a red dwarf right now. I mean, whatever the one is like about to be totally dead, whatever I'm like. No, if you want to make me feel cool and famous one more time before I sputter out like, be my guest Totally, that's totally welcome.

Speaker 1: 35:04

Um, but at the time it was a combined thing right when, like all of the all the people from high school started pouring into my Facebook friend requests. So that was awesome. I was like reject, reject, reject, reject. Um, and then, like I had a kind of cache from that that you just get to have for the rest of your life, which is amazing. But I also had all my airtime wiped and people hated me on Reddit and I was like see, I'm not the right like, I'm not somebody that people broadly like. So you know, and it was this thing where I almost got it. I almost got total redemption where I was like I almost was in the top four If I didn. I was like I almost was in the top four if I didn't pick my fucking job almost in the top four, like would have been about hundreds of thousands of Instagram followers and I would have been like I'm a cool girl. Instead, I was not a cool girl.

Speaker 2: 36:01

Yeah, what would your life be different Like, let's say. Let's say, yeah, if you could like take the adolescent you had, like another, you had another high school period.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:12

And the bachelor, where you got to be like you know, got to be like within the cool, cool kids. What would it have been like if you stayed on that show instead of going to work?

Speaker 1: 36:26

Okay, I'll give you the idealized version and then what's probably the realistic version. Yeah, the idealized desired version is that I could step into any room with total confidence, cause I'd be like I'm one of those people that everyone likes and admires and envies and I'd be able to talk to any guy and any girl and I'd be invited to everything, and everyone would be jealous of me. Yay. The probable reality is that I would have been sucked much more strongly into a toxic hierarchical system that would have chewed me up and spit me out and I would have had a greater sense of cachet.

Speaker 1: 37:11

Like I do enjoy that part, but like I mean the most tangible thing that I would have actually wanted was money Like they. Just if I would have had 500,000 Instagram followers, I'd be a lot wealthier right now. So that would have been great and there would have been cool opportunities. You know, this podcast could be huge and et cetera. But I think, just from the popularity status aspect like what my core, like what my core, what my ego wanted to heal was that kind of idealized, like no one will reject me, I'll just, everyone will want to be me, kind of deal. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:54

I mean I think.

Speaker 1: 37:54

In reality, most people just get stuck in these hierarchical systems and they get pushed around and then new girls come and they're more popular and you lose your Instagram followers and all this shit happens, right? I just had a more rapid experience of that.

Speaker 2: 38:07

Wow, so funny that the the the tips from this episode is yeah, just go on TV, go on national television, and that is a way to heal your childhood wounds. Popularity this become popular.

Speaker 1: 38:24

That was what I suggested.

Speaker 2: 38:26

It's great. No downsides, no notes.

Speaker 2: 38:32

No the rest of us are not on TV. The research does show that if you really all of how you understand your your past experiences right, like if you internalize it, it like everyone beat me up because I'm a terrible person and they saw where it really was and everyone hates it, right, then you could then it would be like that would affect your self-esteem, right the way you make it general to your whole character. If you're like I mean, we just were different kinds of people and those kids were kind of bullies and you know, like I had some friends and I had a good time right, so that would actually be a little bit more protective like, first of all, research shows that even just having one close friend is very protective.

Speaker 1: 39:27

So, like, if you're a parent, you know, I mean even just finding one friend to just like friendship to foster, just you know, do that. I think that saves you from like the worst of the effect. I mean, if your kid is friendless, that's it's a huge problem. Um, you know, I mean you can also do things like find online communities discord, you know, and like knowing people who do that. I'm a little bit wary of suggesting that, though, because I think it can encourage shut in behavior. Yeah, so I think that's a double edged sword. But yeah, I mean, if, like, realistically speaking, you know, I had groups of friends and.

Speaker 1: 40:02

I was never going to wind up with the really negative effects of the deeply unpopular kids because I had plenty of friends, so that wasn't the issue. Um, but I think, like I think if I think new york was extremely good for me, basically first going to college and understanding, like college there's no popularity, I mean there there's almost more wealth stratification at uva. So there was, like some, for some sororities I was never going to get into because I wasn't like an old deep south, like old money family but whatever.

Speaker 1: 40:37

um, but you know it's just like finding whenever you're in a bigger community, there's more people you can find and there's just less direct comparison. So there's. I think actually that's probably a curvilinear thing too. When it's a really small community you don't have that problem. But then when it's like big, like my high school, but not big enough like a college, you're going to see that stratification start. And then when it gets even bigger, you can't see the stratification as much. And then when it gets really big, like New York, you sort of see it. You know that there are elites, but you don't. They're not next to you, they're not sitting at the cafeteria table next to you, unless you're Kibbe and you go to school with Alexandra Daddario. Good, you.

Speaker 2: 41:37

Yeah, I mean it's just it, it. It is so interesting to hear how how much this sits with you like how this, yeah, this like really shaped your identity. It's interesting I'm trying to think about like did how much did it actually shape my identity?

Speaker 2: 41:45

I was more mostly sucked into a relationship in high school, so I all my focus was in in that we were like a tumultuous high conflict couple and we would fight all the time. So my thoughts were more about that. I didn't really and we were in a bigger like friend group, but I didn't really care this was before the psychopathic dude no, it's that. Was that's one?

Speaker 1: 42:08

yeah, okay yeah did you date in college too?

Speaker 2: 42:11

a little bit okay. Yeah, I had mostly boyfriends, so I think I didn't really focus on the social like status thing. I was mostly focused on my relationships, I think Did you care about?

Speaker 1: 42:24

their status, your boyfriend's status.

Speaker 2: 42:27

No, but I cared about winning one person over. So maybe you cared about winning a group of people over, but I cared about getting that guy's attention. Whoever my crush was, I wanted him and I wanted him to notice me. I didn't care what status or you know all the other people around me, but I, I cared about that one boy.

Speaker 1: 42:46

The last time I had truly pure and good taste in men was in fifth grade Shout out to Patrick Cushing, he knows this but I had the biggest crush on him for like one to two years and I liked him because he was smart and I thought he was cute and he wore this really cute yellow jacket. And then after after that, all I cared about was status. So I will say, like, extracurriculars are huge too. I mean, I I went to, I was obsessed with college, getting into the best college, also status. And, um, I got a brochure in the mail that was like, hey, join us at Princeton or Stanford or Harvard or wherever the fuck.

Speaker 1: 43:28

And for a politics summer camp. I had no interest in politics but I saw Ivy leagues Right, so I signed up instantaneously and I went and it was like best summer of my life and I met all of these other like Ivy bound kids and we talked about like politics and philosophy. And then I came back to my school and I started a chapter about like politics and philosophy. And then I came back to my school and I started a chapter and then that we as a chapter we had like conventions with other chapters in ohio and stuff. So I was, I was popular there, so I was able to have this parallel experience where I was really accepted and like desired and that really helped.

Speaker 1: 44:01

So I I think like if your kid is on the nerdier side, like, have them join robotics club.

Speaker 2: 44:08

They might be the cool kid in the room then, or, at least you know, accepted with like-minded peers know what this means in terms of parenting because, like you, could assume that maybe, maybe the popularity in high school is just a reflection of your social. You know, like your attachment stuff, right, like you're a little weird or detached or aggressive when you're a kid. People don't really like you then, or like some people who are on the spectrum or something who have a hard time with connecting to others, right, they or they were like like higher rates of being bullied and then so they might have mental health issues in the future. But who knew? Like chicken or the egg, right.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:56

But also, like I wonder if, if you have, like a stable family life of parents who you know who love you right, then then they're, that's that secondary attachment might not need to matter as much. Right, like you kind of be weird, you know you could be sad, but if you come home to parents who, like, are there for you and really see you, I think that probably would carry stronger over what kids do I mean a thousand percent.

Speaker 1: 45:29

I also think, though, that having really loving parents is going to make it infinitely more likely that you are a likable kid, because you're going to be able to form stable relationships and have a high enough self-esteem to present well.

Speaker 1: 45:42

But, yeah, I mean I you know, yeah, for if a kid would like has autism or something and just genuinely has like a social deficit, then I I don't even know if they would care about status in the same way. Um, I don't know like it would be interesting to see what kinds of people care about status and which which don't. Cause I again like I wasn't rewarded by my parents for popularity, I was for beauty but, it's not like they cared when I went through puberty.

Speaker 1: 46:08

I mean that was all about like attraction for men.

Speaker 2: 46:12

I was way more interested in academic success.

Speaker 2: 46:15

No surprise there, right, like being being getting the highest marks and stuff like that in the best grades. Yeah, I think I would and I would encourage my kids to have that attitude towards popularity. It's like enjoy the people that you're, that you click with and have like, who are like good people, who are into what you're into, and like support you then like fight for popularity, like I would try to teach, teach Jackson that of like focus on the people who are like you know what you really care about.

Speaker 1: 46:49

Yeah, yeah, I mean I again, like, I mean my my brothers would always say, like high school popularity does not matter, especially in West Virginia, especially if you have money in West Virginia. I mean this is sort of a sad thing to say, but like my life plan always involved, uh, surpassing most of my peers, because most people are going to be stuck in West Virginia, whereas my family had the money to launch me into it, you know an out of state college and beyond. So you know, looking back on my the popular kids now like they're not doing so hot and I'm no longer super proud of that. Like I'd like it if people were just successful. I have no beef with them anymore.

Speaker 1: 47:28

But that was just reality. Your situation was totally different. But I mean it just sounds like you didn't necessarily need that anyway. Um, but I mean when I, when I gave up on the popular thing that was just after my first year in high school, like I did not keep pursuing that. I think I wanted some carnations at Valentine's day still, but I like I became. One thing I'll say about myself, and I've always been like this, is that I would never not be friends with somebody because they weren't popular.

Speaker 1: 47:54

At least I don't think that's true, I was friends with like people all across the spectrum, um, and I just like leaned much more heavily into genuine friendships and then was genuinely sort of happy um and got into parties and pursued jsa, the politics club and and everything. So I also want to instill that in my kids. But, like I think it's so, I really think for me the big thing was that I was discovering who I was and I was getting information that I could not make it onto the highest rungs of anything, and that was like the real problem for me. And so I think with, yeah, my kids it's going to be like a you really have to believe me that you are not done developing and that one context is not going to give you very much information about who you're going to be in other contexts. So, like, please have patience, let's get you into other contexts. I'm going to I'm going to.

Speaker 1: 48:53

I'm, I'm going to go in hard with my kids Cause I'm so worried about the asociality of of today's teens. Um, but I'm, yeah, I mean, I'm going to be setting up plays, play dates, out the wazoo.

Speaker 2: 49:11

What would you say are different ways that people who are not popular in high school and it's still haunts them, it's still affects like no matter what. They might have good friends, they might have a good life, but they just can't shake the feeling that they're not cool.

Speaker 1: 49:22

You answer first.

Speaker 2: 49:23

first, you have not um, yeah, I mean I guess you could, you know, rewrite the narrative right, like, as we're saying, that it matters how you see that past right like maybe when you look back on the past and you focus on the times that you know you weren't top eight on MySpace, yeah, Like your mind might fixate on those details, but then you might want to remember things like what, what were things that you did that you were proud of?

Speaker 2: 49:56

When when did you have the best time? When were you like laughing so hard that you, like you and your friends, couldn't stop? Yeah, what did people like you for that you did like you, like you and your friends couldn't stop? Yeah, what do people like you for that do did like you. You know, and are those you know always. The easiest one is are those popular kids still popular? Or did they peak in high school Right.

Speaker 1: 50:16

Well, I mean, I actually think that the research today's is kind of helpful in this. It's like when we think about who's the most popular, they're not the most popular because not even because they're the best looking or because they're the nicest or the most interesting or the smartest or anything like that it is because they are, they have higher levels of powerful and forceful behaviors. You know, so like that's not necessarily a good thing. I mean, it can, it can be adaptive in certain contexts. But you know also, high popularity is a huge like. It's highly associated with, like risky behaviors, which makes sense. You know, like really popular kids are giving each other blow jobs and doing cocaine at like the age of 15.

Speaker 2: 51:01

So do you know that in new york, at these bar and bat mitzvahs, these parties that we used to go to when they were like when kids turned 13, oh, no, kids are like giving each other blowjobs in the middle of like a dance floor well, I mean, that's very impressive about the dance floor. I haven't even seen that in adulthood, but like there might be a chair involved, but what I'm saying is 13 year old kids giving each other bjs in public.

Speaker 1: 51:34

God my scars. But I mean I grew up in west virginia. Like I remember in the fifth grade like kids were caught doing drugs in the bathroom.

Speaker 2: 51:41

So I mean there is all sorts of shit, I want the kids to go that far, but a lot of teen pregnancy and stuff what else do you do if you were not cool and you're like oh well, I always feel not cool, yeah well, yeah, I mean again, like, maybe the reason you weren't popular in high school was because you actually had really good traits that just aren't.

Speaker 1: 52:09

They don't have mass market appeal. So like, if we think of, if we think of Proust, okay, the novelist, he has critical acclaim, but he does not have mass market appeal. Like the best, the best, the most, like the most smart, interesting, you know, fascinating people are probably not going to be wildly popular in high school. So it doesn't necessarily say something bad about you if you were not the most popular kid in high school.

Speaker 2: 52:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:44

You're just prused. You're just prused man. That's pretty dope, in fact I like that.

Speaker 2: 52:48

I like that mantra I like that that's a good closing statement.

Speaker 1: 52:54

Yeah, I mean. So, like the, the people who were most popular in high school, probably, like I mean they might have they probably had some combination of like a forcefulness, dominance, aggression, um, some pro-social behavior and also, just like they liked the popular shit, there was probably an element of unoriginality Mainstream, mainstream.

Speaker 2: 53:16

Yeah, so don't be basic. And then the other tip is go on national television.

Speaker 1: 53:22

Go on national television. Move to New.

Speaker 2: 53:23

York.

Speaker 1: 53:24

You girl.

Speaker 1: 53:25

So tips for if you are still suffering from low self-esteem because you weren't popular in high school, so yeah, I mean I would say like really try to reframe what popularity actually probably meant in high school.

Speaker 1: 53:41

I don't know. I think a lot of this is just like we we build scar tissue over that wound that keeps affecting us even when it's no longer appropriate, right, like you may just be holding onto something just because it it was a wound that formed early enough to to cut you deep enough to build scar tissue, and so really working through that is possible. Like it really might be irrelevant at this point. You could be somebody who has lots of friends, who has a partner, right, but the thing is, is that, like I mean I can say this about me, I've said it right Like I lost confidence around certain people because I had beliefs about my likability or desirability around those people, and that might be the very thing that's keeping you stuck in this wound is your own belief, your own limiting beliefs about yourself, and like what kinds of people could possibly like you or what fashion you could possibly wear.

Speaker 1: 54:36

That was another thing. Like I never felt like I could pull off cool girl fashion, um, for whatever fucking reason you know, try. I mean my advice is always to just like get disconfirming evidence, try new things. Like invest, invest in your look. Like put you know, get the blowout, get the makeup done. Like buy the clothes you really want to buy and just try it out for a while, like see what fits, but also see what you feel like natural in. And not because you're limiting yourself, not because you have negative beliefs and think you need to wear like a baggy t-shirt or nothing you know, but because like oh, this feels authentically me, like what is going to make you confident. So I mean I would say, invest in confidence yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:25

How we would say with our clients is if you were confident or you were feeling self-assured or whatever, what would you be doing differently, right? And then just act that way, like fake it till you, make it yeah, and then get on tv.

Speaker 1: 55:38

Yeah, and then go on tv and then be unpopular on TV, but still more popular than like most people that you went to high school with.

Speaker 2: 55:47

Or make a monkey meme that has now gotten 9 million views.

Speaker 1: 55:54

Damn, that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 55:56

Cool of mine to look it up on Instagram. It's like regular posts about mental health and relationships and one monkey meme I made.

Speaker 1: 56:06

I got nine million views so I think what we're saying is keep chasing the dragon, like, yeah, keep going for popularity that's what that's how you could heal the problem of being not popular um, yeah, I mean I you know, but take, take pride in whatever makes you unusual. I mean, I do feel like I've, I've at least gotten there yeah, yeah, I mean, this self-esteem is really how we understand.

Speaker 2: 56:39

You know a lifetime of interactions with people. How do like? Who are we compared to, like in relation to others? And you can focus on the bad stuff, or you could focus on the whole picture, or you could focus on the good stuff. And so yeah just asking yourself, like I might not have been popular, but what was I proud of or what? What did I like about me as a kid?

Speaker 1: 57:03

right, right. Maybe you were too busy studying to be fucking popular.

Speaker 2: 57:08

You know, maybe studying I was playing video games. I was I don't even know. I was not cool. I was squarely not cool and I think I didn't care. Yeah I mean that I enjoy being a dork. What?

Speaker 1: 57:23

is that like? What is that?

Speaker 2: 57:26

like it's really fun you play a lot of Zelda have one or two couple best friends. Everyone's fussing over what they wear. I've been wearing the same thing since I was at like leggings and a baggy t-shirt.

Speaker 1: 57:42

That's what I wear all the time. Realistically speaking, if we look at a person who's 30 years old and if they weren't cool in high school but they've got friends now, like it's like they're holding themselves to the standard of when they were definitely at their least cool, because every high school student is at their least cool in their entire lifespan. I mean, maybe some people I guess that's not true the people who are really popular and then take a nosedive. This doesn't apply to them, but in general, people who are have a basic level of flourishing. Now, when they're in high school, they're actually kind of a loser, right, they had an adolescent sense of humor. They thought really dumb shit was funny. That wasn't.

Speaker 1: 58:21

You know, they were trying to fit in all over the place. Like that's what you're blaming yourself for not being successful in. And the people who didn't like you like that's what we're concerned about. Like those people who now follow their you know, follow their trajectory and they're probably not cool. That's what you're holding onto. Versus today, when you have, like people who love you and value you and you know we'll fly to Portugal when you're not even getting married to support you and all of that. So, um, good reframe.

Speaker 1: 58:57

Thank you, thank you. So I didn't actually mean any of that stuff. I said and I do want to be popular. So if you want to give us mass market appeal, feel free to give us a five-star rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify and we'll see you next week. By accessing this podcast. I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the Thank you and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.