Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:08

Hey, little helpers. It's Kibby here and we're so excited to welcome Madison Ricchiello from Love is Blind, on A Little Help for Our Friends. But first I wanted to tell you that if you're feeling overwhelmed by the mental health or addiction problems of someone you love, I could give you one-on-one support through KulaMind. KulaMind is our online coaching platform and community that I built to help you break toxic dynamics, set boundaries without guilt and take care of the ones you love without losing yourself. And even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, you could book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to KulaMind. com K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D. com and click get started. Thank you and enjoy the show, hey guys we have a very special guest today.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:47

We have gone back to my reality TV roots, although not the Bachelor this time. We have gone over to Love is Blind, our first ever Love is Blind guest. It is Madison Aracallo. We are so excited to have you here. You were kind of a spokesperson for mental health on the show. We're really intrigued to have you after the conversations about mental health and particularly attachment style that you had on the show. So we're really curious to kind of talk to you about your background and kind of what you've learned along the way.

Madison Errichiello: 1:23

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:26

My first question is I think I've seen you make a joke about like trauma dumping. Like trauma dumping. What do you feel? Is that something that people post show have made you feel bad about? Or like yes, okay.

Madison Errichiello: 1:42

Yeah, definitely. I think it's really interesting because, you know, going on a TV show intending to get married, you have to talk about things that you know are in your past. You have to talk about your family. You have to talk about those things before you get engaged. At least I would think so. And so for people like me who do have kind of a difficult past and do have a long history of you know different family dynamics and and things like that, um, it can come off as trauma dumping, and especially the way that they edit it, um, you know, it's very like trauma heavy, like they kind of made that my story, although, like, when you do actually get to know me, that's not how I handle things, that's not who I am. Like I don't wear this trauma as like a coat. So, yeah, I think a lot of people are like she trauma dumped and then, you know, left the pod single, but it is what it is.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 2:38

I didn't know that. That's what they said, oh yeah.

Madison Errichiello: 2:42

I mean there's lots of noise, there's lots of things being said about it. But at the end of the day, like that's my story, you know, and I think it's really important to share serious relationship that you have to form in two weeks, less Less, yeah, and it's like what information about me might be relevant.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 3:16

Well, maybe it's how I see the world and how I show up in the world. What has you know crafted that and shaped that? It seems pretty relevant, but yet there's this term I was having a conversation with a follower about this where she's just like I hate this term. It's like it makes it seem like a bad thing to talk about your traumas. But like, why keep that a secret, right? Like? Or why just like give people little spoonfuls? I mean, I can kind of see the dialectic of it of like first date, you know, revealing your entire life story, but on the other hand, you don't have much time on that show yeah, I mean, it's literally you have a week, a week's time to get to know someone and then get engaged to them.

Madison Errichiello: 3:56

So this isn't typical dating right, like if I'm going on a first date with someone in the real world, you know I might jump into some like oh, like I lost my brother or things like that, but like I'm not going into depth about any of my family dynamics or you know whatever, but like when you have the intention to get married within a week's time, you have to talk about that stuff. And I think what I found is the people who haven't necessarily experienced trauma in that way, they are the ones who are talking about it being trauma dumping. They just don't understand. And then the people who have experienced that trauma are like, oh my gosh, I see myself in you. Thank you so much. Like you know, bringing awareness to this on a reality television platform has been really helpful to a lot of people as well. So there's definitely two spectrums.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 4:46

Well, it's kind of funny because the bachelor literally demands it. I mean, we're known for our dates being like quote unquote, trauma dump dates, so yeah, so that's just so funny.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 4:58

What? What about that dating context of love is blind brought up? What kind of trauma like when I imagine, like you know, dating and getting in relationships and starting to connect to people, a lot of our you know our past and our, like mental health comes up and gets triggered and gets, you know, challenged or we have to work through it. What, what came up in that setting for you?

Madison Errichiello: 5:23

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a point in the show where I say hey, like if I'm too much for you, let me know.

Madison Errichiello: 5:30

Like if you want to find someone who's experienced less in life or who's gone through less in life, let me know.

Madison Errichiello: 5:38

And I think that was kind of a hard place for me to exist, because I have experienced that in past relationships of just feeling like I'm too much or feeling like my past is too much, or you know, and I've done a lot of work to kind of heal those childhood wounds and start moving forward and being more secure in my relationships, and I think that's why I can be so open about it. But in the case of, like Alex, instead of him seeing, oh, she's being really open, she's being really vulnerable and she's sharing this information with me because she's worked through this, clearly it's oh well, that scares me, like that really terrifies me, and so I think that was kind of my biggest hurdle of, you know, feeling like I was too much, and then when I was met with that uncertainty, it pushed me to be like, well, no, like I promise I'm worth it. I promise, like don't leave, like I promise I'll show you. So I think that that was really hard to watch back, for sure.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 6:41

Yeah, I noticed that dynamic. Yeah, I noticed that dynamic and it I mean I didn't find you hard to watch, but it I did notice that dance that you were in of, kind of like wait, I know I have to like. I have to reverse a little bit and try to like, comfort you and I'm not terrifying, I'm not like somebody that you have to be afraid to be with. You can't handle that. You know that was a little bit upsetting, yeah it was. Would you mind telling us a little bit about your upbringing?

Madison Errichiello: 7:16

Yeah, I mean it's. It's interesting because I think people who you know watch the show, who you know watch the show. It's funny how their view on life shapes the way that they interpret things right. So, um, a lot of people were like how can you say that your parents were drug addicts but they were also christians? Like that doesn't make sense. Or you know, like just things like that, which two things can exist at once?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 7:44

um, but on social media, Madison, I'm sorry.

Madison Errichiello: 7:46

No, I know Nuance, nowhere to be found. But I kind of, you know, portion my life out in like three different sectors, right? So I was born in Indiana but my mom quickly moved back to Wisconsin to be with her family and that's where she met my stepdad when I was two. So I grew up with my mom and my stepdad, who were drug addicts, and you know, when you're a kid you don't know those types of things, you think that that's just everyone's life. So it's not until later that you start to be like oh, that was messed up, that's not normal, that's not normal. Um, and yeah. So then my dad got custody of me and he lived in Indiana. Um, so he got custody of me when I was nine, which tells you how bad things were, because how often does a dad get custody in a different state? Um, where the mom doesn't have necessarily like visitation rights. I still visited her, but it was not necessary legally.

Madison Errichiello: 8:48

And so, yeah, moving from that drug addict kind of like free reign, like I would wake up in the morning, get myself to school, like walk myself to school, like in elementary school, just very self-sufficient, took care of my brother, and then moving into a household with my dad when I was nine and he was married to my stepmom and they were very devout Christians, very conservative. Like I had to ask to eat things, I had to ask to go play with my friends, I had to ask to do all of these things and I had to start following, following these new rules, and you know. So they both had their own pros and cons I guess not necessarily pros, but cons. They both had their own different hardships. So I feel like I've lived like two different lives. And then, you know, finally, like my adult life, is me in Minnesota.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 9:52

But yeah, I think that hopefully kind of explains it a little bit. With such different households, what tends to come up for you in relationships? My question is from when you're saying too much, that can mean so many different things.

Madison Errichiello: 10:03

What for you felt like oh, this, this definitely came up in relationships and it was hard for people um, I mean, I think the aspect of of too much is just wanting too much or requesting too much from people, like requesting too much loyalty or requesting too much when it comes to trust or things like that. And I think also, growing up, having to be very like acclimate to different you know environments so quickly made me sort of this people pleaser as this sort of like survival, um, like protection technique, and so that turned me into this like well, it's whatever you want, whatever you're comfortable with, and and I'll just go with the flow. But that made me like so miserable, um to the point where it caused resentment. You know, in my relationships too, on my side, and um being able to voice that has been a challenge I've.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:04

I've figured it out along the way, but yeah, I'm like my mind is going in a couple of different directions. Yeah, I kind of want to return to your childhood in a second, but I also I think that a big theme of today is going to be talking about relationships and how this has has influenced you. Um, relationships and how this has has influenced you. Um, one thing we see when people have a chaotic childhood is that, especially if there are attachment wounds, is that they will reenact the attachment wound and try to win this time. So they'll find somebody who is similar to their father or mother. Right and then, but try to beat the Like, if I can get you to love me, then I'll win and I can heal this wound. And that often is a losing proposition. And so then you just lose and lose and lose and lose and it gets worse and worse and worse.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 11:56

The other thing that I feel like I see from people who maybe didn't feel like they had unconditional love growing up is a desire for unconditional love in a romantic partner, and I mean we all, like, want that right, but in a way where they're asking maybe too much of their partner, because they're asking their partner to fulfill what they should have gotten from their parents. So you said like you're asking for too much, and on one hand it's like are you asking for too much because you're looking for that relationship you never got, or are you asking for too much for the people that you're with Because those people are just fundamentally not going to give you very much? Do you have any idea if you're even like in either of those buckets or some third option? If that made any sense, if that made any sense.

Madison Errichiello: 12:42

Yeah, I think it's definitely both.

Madison Errichiello: 12:45

It's a both and situation.

Madison Errichiello: 12:47

You know, I've been in relationships, yeah, I've been in relationships where it's like, oh, me asking too much, is me asking you to be faithful to me and stop cheating on me or stop, you know, stop liking, stop liking, you know, bikini pictures on Instagram or unfollow your ex, or just things like that like asking too much. But I think sometimes there are those, um, unspoken requests or times where I have, in the past, wished that someone could read my mind because I I didn't know how to say it or I didn't know how, like what, even to communicate. I just wish that they would have met me there without even communicating that I needed that. So I think it's definitely both ends of the spectrum right. Like I wasn't perfect in any of my relationships and I think it's definitely evident to me looking in the past that I have required a lot from the people that I've been in relationships with, because I was looking for that fulfillment that now I have found in self-love. Yay, yes, yeah, but yeah, I can definitely see how I've done that in the past.

Madison Errichiello: 14:06

Give an example of a of something that you needed, that you wished a partner or someone you know picked up on without you saying it, or yeah, it's hard, I haven't dated in, I mean been in a relationship in like three years almost now, so it's kind of hard to remember any specifics. But I just think, like you know, I've been told in the past like I just can't win with you, like if I do this then I can't win, and if I do that then I can't win. That's fair, like that's valid. Because I think with myself, like I couldn't feel like I could win, like no matter which way it went, like I wasn't good at compromising, um, or you know, I just can get very strict with, like what I need and and how I need things to be. Um, I mean, in the past I I was um or what I expected from people without communicating. But yeah, I don't think I can think of any like specific examples.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 15:14

Yeah, can you talk at all about how loss has played into this? You were talking, I mean, I was really struck by the amount of loss you've experienced in your life.

Madison Errichiello: 15:27

Yeah, I mean, you know there's the loss of like physical loss, like death. I've lost my stepdad, um, to a drug overdose and I lost my brother in a car crash very suddenly. So all of the loss of experience has been very sudden. Like you know, you don't get time to say your goodbyes or make peace with it. So I think that definitely plays into my relationships as sort of like an anxiety of you know, there was, there was one guy I was talking to for a little bit and one of my rules and friendships and relationships, and I know it doesn't make sense to everyone, but as long as you can respect it, for me, like we're going to be okay, is just let me know when you get home. Like I just need that, I need you to let me know when you get home safely and if I don't have your location, I just need to know.

Madison Errichiello: 16:20

And he, this guy, just could not do that. And there was one night he was like working security and it was St Patrick's Day and you know so there's a lot of drunk drivers out there. He was supposed to come over to my apartment after I didn't hear from him until 11 the next morning. I was up all night have never experienced that kind of like, sudden loss, can see that as like controlling, right, like, oh, like, why does it matter? Why do I need to text you? But with someone who has experienced that trauma, like it's just a peace of mind, like it's not at all meant to be controlling, it's just like. No, like I've experienced very sudden loss my life and I just that's just what I need, like I just need to know that you're safe.

Madison Errichiello: 17:02

Um, so I think that is sometimes hard for people to understand because it's not often that people have experienced things like that. But then you know it's the loss of like a parent who does have drug addiction, and having to like mourn what that person should have been in your life, like my mother, like was not a mother to me. So it's losing out on having someone that you can go to or you can trust an adult person in your life, and I think that you know can tend to make it difficult to trust people in real time and inform like really trusting relationships with friends or you know other family members or things like that. But you know, at the end of the day, like that's my story and I don't allow myself to be a victim to my circumstances. So those are things that I genuinely have like truly worked on in life. I'm just very open about it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:10

Well, we love that. Oh sorry, kitty.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:12

No, I'm just. I'm just, you know, sad for you. I mean it just. It's that kind of trauma and that kind of loss. It exposes you to something that people take for granted, which is like you just say, oh yeah, that person's fine.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 18:27

If I don't hear from them, they're probably still alive, like you don't even know that you have that belief, or just like, yeah, someone's going to love me and people are trustworthy, Like all these things that people take for granted and don't realize how painful it is when they don't have that security. So I mean, I just yeah, yeah, that was a.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:47

That was mostly what I was. No, it struck me too because, like so I work in um a va right now. So it's like heavily ptsd and what you see with trauma survivors is and I'm not a trauma survivor, right. So, like I can tell that I have this protective coating, which is is exactly as Kipi was describing. It's like, I assume, the best case scenario or just sort of the medium case scenario, but I'm never really assuming the worst case scenario and there's this sense this isn't a quote for me, it's from a different book on trauma but that we're, like, divinely protected. So even if, like I don't, I'm not religious, but I still there's this sense of like. Yeah, like I'm not religious, but I still there's this sense of like. Yeah, like I'm protected, like everything's going to be okay.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 19:28

I'm not one of those people that these things happens to, and then one of these things happens to you and you become that person, and then there's a kind of reverberation of like, oh, this isn't the world I was living in yesterday. Did you ever feel like you had that kind of protective coating? Or did I mean you were living such an abnormal life from so early on? And just so you know also, the three of us in this room have someone in our family who abdicated their mothering duties to drug addiction or alcohol addiction. Not my mom, it was my sister, but Kimmy's mom and and your mom, and so there's this interesting thread on the three of us today well, we're all connected.

Madison Errichiello: 20:07

Somehow we're never truly alone. Yeah, yeah, you'll get it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:12

Yeah, you don't get anything for granted yeah, I mean.

Madison Errichiello: 20:18

No, I don't think that I have ever truly felt like I've had that protective coating, like I think that protective coating is me and my own self, like it's me going inwards. It's me, you know, like learning about disassociation and how that's developed as a child was crazy to me, because as a child I don't remember thinking, oh, this is so bad. But you know, looking back I'm like, oh, I created these patterns and these behaviors of self-protection and you know, like extreme sort of independence that kind of gets on people's nerves in my life, like they want me to depend on them. And then I'm like, no, it's good, it's fine. Um, because, yeah, that's that's the only thing I've known. Like the only person that has ever truly protected me is myself. Um, so I don't know what it's like to have, you know, that worldview of like, oh, things will work out. It's like I don't know what that's like.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 21:20

Yeah, this might be getting into the you know, the treatment and recovery part, but how did you survive all of that? Like, how did you you know you're talking about that. Now you're able to, you know, reflect and have self-love, but what was that? Like in those early days of trying to to cope with all that. I mean self-reliance, but what else did you do? What else um helped you get through that?

Madison Errichiello: 21:51

yeah, my therapist reminds me all the time of like just, ever since I was a kid, I've just had this weird resilience, like I just, you know, don't allow things to truly, truly break me, and I think it's, you know, it is that like self-reliance, like at the end of the day, I always know that I'll have myself and that's good enough, um, and you know, I'll always be okay, like no matter what happens. But yeah, I think it's just, I've always had just such a resilient sort of like you know, mindset, I guess, and that's really the only thing that I can attribute it to.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 22:37

One of the things you talked about that scared Alex was avoid it. Yeah, you know my thoughts on this because you listened to the episode, but I was wondering if you could describe what you meant by that, because I feel like as soon as you said that, everybody else sort of superimposed what they meant by that on top of you.

Madison Errichiello: 22:57

Yeah, no, I mean, I think you made a really great point, like if I wouldn't have identified that way, I wonder if people would have given me a little bit more grace, because it was a lot of like projection in my comments, right, it was, oh, I did it, this person who was avoided and they ruined my life and like I did it, it's just like it's again. It's like they're experiencing my story from their point of view, their worldview, right. So I get it. It's a lot, but I get it.

Madison Errichiello: 23:27

But I think what was really missed was he identified as an anxious, right? Do I think he's an anxious? No, because he didn't act that way. If anything, I think he displayed more avoidant behaviors than I did, and I think people just hear, they hear it, and then they take it as truth, right.

Madison Errichiello: 23:48

But I think what I saw on the TV and what I experienced for myself was me continuing to be like, hey, I'm going to show up in this relationship securely. I'm going to be vulnerable with you. That's not what an avoidant does Like. If I'm scared, I'm not going to share. Be vulnerable with you, that's not what an avoidant does Like. If I'm scared, I'm not going to share this information with you. I'm not going to give you my bear, I'm not going to. You know, like I was continuing to show up for him and show up for him, and it was like, no matter what I did, he just wanted to push away and he wanted to run, like, at the end of the day, that was just going to be, you know, it just wasn't going to work. So, yeah, I think it is interesting how what I showed versus what I said, what I said was taken more heavily than my actual actions, if that makes sense.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 24:43

Mm-hmm, how do you actually feel about, about your attachment style?

Madison Errichiello: 24:50

I mean it's funny, right, because you can feel super healed. And then the minute you start getting into like a relationship or a situation ship with someone, it's like, oh, now I'm suddenly having to like face these fears again with someone. It's like, oh, now I'm suddenly having to like face these fears again. Like even recently I was, you know, talking to this girl and I was like, oh, wow, like I really like her. But then I was like, oh, but you know this, and then this and this, and it's like, okay, well, I don't have to think so, future minded, I can let it be what it is and let it, you know, kind of run its course as it may.

Madison Errichiello: 25:25

But I do think, like what has helped me so much in my avoidant tendencies or my attachment, you know, style, is the idea that I will always have myself right. So, no matter if I come to you and I'm really vulnerable about how I feel and like if you receive it, well, great. If you don't, that's okay, because I was still vulnerable, I was okay enough to tell you how I feel. And if you can't reciprocate that energy, then like you're probably not my person and that's good. That's like you know how relationships are like if, if you can't receive this, well then maybe we should. This doesn't work out, but I think, just knowing that it's not about feeling safe with that person, it's about feeling safe with yourself and safe enough that, no matter if I'm vulnerable, I'll always be okay because I have me Does that make sense?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:23

Yeah yeah, but that sounds really healthy. That doesn't sound avoidant. Avoidant attachment gets such a bad rap Like I think that it's like toxic and narcissistic, but it just. I mean, I think Jacqueline and I have both talked about our avoidant attachment styles, but mostly because we've. You know, when you experience relational trauma or someone not being available, it's scary to have to then trust somebody right, because you don't know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:53

so, yeah, you tend to be a little bit more like um, I guess it's all insecurity, anxious or or avoidant, but it's just like where do you feel more safe in yourself, or trying to cling to a person? And, yes, I find that people do both. It's not like avoided means that they just they're fuck boys or whatever.

Madison Errichiello: 27:12

Right, it's just I don't know I'm going on a rant, but no, I mean, that makes sense. I think it like I have obviously done work, like you're literally propped up on the book attached right now. Oh yeah, that book.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 27:28

They also give a bad rap to avoid an attachment. They're like if you're avoidant, just stop being avoidant.

Madison Errichiello: 27:34

No, I literally was like this is kind of unhelpful, but thank you, like it's very drawn to it. It's very like for the anxious, I think no-transcript show is like you're two different people. Well, first of all it's editing, but also that's just humans being humans. Right, we all have different relationships with each other. Um, but, yeah, I have. I've, I've understood, like I've been in the mind of an anxious before. I think you know, you know that quote on TikTok, where it's like and who set that system up. That's how I feel, where it's like. I've been so like betrayed specifically by men in the past that it's almost gone from like anxious to avoidant, like I've over corrected to now I'm an avoidant and now I don't want anything to do with you, and like your energy is it different with women um, I would say, yes, I tend to be more avoidant with women.

Madison Errichiello: 29:01

Um, um, yeah, but I think that's because it's it's a lot more emotional, um, like you get deeper emotionally um quicker with men. It's like they're okay, just like being really surface level for a really long time, and sometimes I can be okay existing on surface level for a really long time, um, and so, yeah, with women I think I do tend to be a little bit more avoidant, um, because with men it's just easier, like I like I don't, I don't, I'm not scared of hurting them.

Madison Errichiello: 29:40

But with women, you know, it's just so much more intense. I remember I went on a date with this this girl like I went on maybe two dates with her and then I hadn't. I didn't text her back like for like four days. And by the time I texted her back she was like honestly F you? I don't know if we can cuss on here, but she was like honestly F you and I was like what F you? I don't know if we can cuss on here, but she was like honestly F you and I was like what why? She was like I didn't hear from you for four days. So it's just things like that where I'm like I tend to be more avoidant because it's so much more intense. And then you know, with men it can be casual for a longer time.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 30:19

Can I ask you what intensity brings up for you what these emotional conversations feel like for you that makes you kind of want to back away?

Madison Errichiello: 30:26

I don't think it's necessarily the emotional conversations. I'm okay having intense conversations. I think it's the feelings that come with it, right, like it's the feeling connected to someone when you share those emotions with someone, those emotions with someone. That kind of makes me take a step back and I think in some ways it is healthy, right, like you want to be safe about who you're sharing information with or who you're connecting with emotionally. But yeah, I think it's more so, just like a scary thing to get vulnerable with a new person that you're romantically interested in and that kind of makes me take a step back sometimes what?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 31:12

what did it? What was that like? In love is blind, like. Imagine that there's some aspects of not seeing them that could feel safer. But like it looked like, at least from editing that you were sitting there, like it's like a. I always thought about it as like a confessional. You're sitting there, really talking very deeply, quickly did like. Did things feel like safer or scarier there in that regard?

Madison Errichiello: 31:36

it felt safer because you know you don't have that physical, like eye contact. Where should I? Where should I look? What should I do? How do I look like? I mean, you do in a little bit, a little bit, but just because you're on camera, um, but you forget that the cameras are there, and so I think it. It kind of it's almost like you know how people feel safer being more hateful online because they're behind a screen. It's almost that way where you just you feel safer because it's almost like that person isn't real. In a weird way. You're like they're real but like I can't see them. So I feel okay enough to be more vulnerable. Weird experience.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:23

I always find it fascinating when um we talk about like, how, like my, um, my best friend is bi and she'll talk about some sort of similarly, how women can be like a little like intense and or just like more emotionally connected and how that can kind of and it's just so funny when we think about how men are usually the ones who handle women in that place and how bad men can be at that.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 32:48

It's kind of like, how did like, how did we get designed this way where, like men, are the ones that have to like women's like emotional, like emotional depth? Uh, but that was just an aside I don't know.

Madison Errichiello: 32:58

I stopped expecting anything from men a long time ago.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:03

Better place to be.

Madison Errichiello: 33:10

Honestly, I have a lot more peace in my life.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 33:12

I sleep peacefully these days. I was earlier when you were talking about going from a highly unstructured environment to a highly structured environment. One of the thoughts I have is like sometimes kids who grow up without structure really gravitate towards structure and need it and love it. But it also seems like for you it was overcorrected and now I know you're an artist which is not structured, do you? What kind of role does art play for you?

Madison Errichiello: 33:40

Yeah, I mean art has has been, and especially with, you know, the internet. I don't think I was ready for people to be so like I need to see this from you and I need to see that from you. And you talked about this, so now you owe me that. Um, like I decided before the show came out that I didn't want to use love is fine to promote my art art because I had recently kind of the past couple of years have been really difficult for me mentally I finally have gotten to a place where I don't feel like I'm just surviving.

Madison Errichiello: 34:14

For a long time I felt like I was just surviving and I think because of that, that really impacted my ability to feel creative and it just felt like everything I created was just not me, like I didn't identify with it, and I was trying to kind of get back to my roots of being more playful with my art and just putting things out without the intention of selling it and just having fun with it. And so that got picked up on the internet and people were like you're not an artist, like you won't show us your art. So that's been really interesting to to watch take place. But yeah, I think I like art because it doesn't force me to be structured. But I think there there's that part of me where it's like I do need structure in my life, although I do resist it, like I don't like feeling like I have to do this at a certain time and do that like routines. I know I thrive in them, but I also really despise them at the same time.

Madison Errichiello: 35:20

I just said a lot in one setting, but yeah, I hope that answers your question. Yeah, unstructured, yes, yeah, yeah, like I am like your type b friend, like to the max, but it's like I need my space to be clean, I need it to be like you know whatever, but it's not organized. Like you go in my drawers and it's just like you know everything has its place, but it's not organized. Like you go in my drawers and it's just like you know everything has its place, but it's all chaotic in its place, if that makes sense, it's not chaos to you, it's orderly to you exactly yes you mentioned a couple times people writing all sorts of comments and I what?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:03

what was your in terms of mental health? What was your experience going into the show and then coming out? I just know from Jackson Jacqueline's experience, which you know. She let her tell you, but it it can be rough out there. So how do you? What was that like for you?

Madison Errichiello: 36:21

Yeah, I found an incredible therapist, um, like last September or October, I don't remember exactly um, but I just started having these like insane anxieties over well, what will people think? And I don't even know what my storyline is. I know, for the bachelor bachelorette, your editing time is like a lot shorter than love is blind. So we have a year to sit on this and you know over that course of the year, so much happens in between and you forget like small details and stuff. So, yeah, I found my therapist and was just like I really want to make sure that I'm in a good headspace when this show comes out, so that neither positive like praise or hate comments will shake me Like I don't want to get so swept up in like the positive part of things, because the internet is so fickle and they can turn at you at any moment um, that I put my identity in the positive things and I don't want to put my identity and and the negative things, like I want to be very secure in myself. So my therapist and I did a lot of that work um, previous to the show coming out, um and then afterwards we have also done a lot of work, but I felt like I was in a really good headspace.

Madison Errichiello: 37:48

So the first couple of days shook me, like I was like I don't know how to feel. I'm getting so much on both ends, like I was a very polarizing person, so it was just very loud, like you know, on both ends of the spectrum and I think for the first two days I felt really overwhelmed. And then the third day I was like I've decided I don't care and I'm just gonna have fun with it, and you know. So I just like reply to some hate comments being funny or like whatever. I would like lean into the joke or I would joke about myself or cause it's just really not that serious. So I do feel like I've handled it well. I also got on Zoloft, which has been incredibly helpful. I was on Lexapro before, but I didn't really think it helped. So finding the right meds is key. I'm like this is what normal people feel like.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 38:43

Crazy, well you just named is what normal people feel like. Crazy, Well, you just named our two antidepressants.

Madison Errichiello: 38:48

So it's very exciting for us.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 38:51

no-transcript yeah, I mean I found it very difficult coming off of the show, um and the.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 39:02

I was like I had people hated me on reddit for whatever, like I had a pretty good edit, um it was just yeah people just hate on reddit my mom's best piece of advice was like, can you just find it fascinating like you're getting such a unique view into like human behavior, and it is kind of fascinating. They have extremely selective memory. Um, they can, they can develop an entire persona for you based off of like, um, a misunderstanding or or literally, a memory error. That happens a lot.

Madison Errichiello: 39:31

Um, and then just an insistence on hating and just willfully like misinterpreting people is amazing yeah, I mean, the being misunderstood was like such a core wound for me and that was like my biggest fear, and so that's something I've had to face head-on with reality tv. Um, it's just like, yeah, you just have to let people misunderstand you and you don't have to correct everyone, because, even if you do, they probably don't care. Like some people truly just want to misunderstand who you are and some people truly just want to hate, and there's no reason to give energy to that because they're probably really miserable.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 40:15

Did you I mean, even if you you're like this projective test mirror for what people are feeling did you get a sense that people wanted to read something in you? I know we talked about the avoidant piece, but is there anything that you could feel like people got the impression of or wanted to see in you? Or like what, what, what happened to the audience when you look at, like, how they're reacting to you?

Madison Errichiello: 40:39

It's funny because I truly have stayed on like a very positive side of the internet and, like when the show was coming out, I did not scroll on TikTok, or if I did and I saw my face, positive or negative, I would scroll past it. So a lot of the time I don't really know exactly what people are saying about me, like I don't go on Reddit, I don't like you know yeah, like control.

Madison Errichiello: 41:06

Well, it's like yeah, at first I was like the first day and then I was like this is so unhealthy and so, yeah, yeah, I just kind of created those boundaries within myself of like, okay, I don't actually need to know what everyone thinks of me, because I know what I think of me, um, and I know what happened. But I think I mean, there's, you know, a lot of different narratives of me, like I'm a man eater or I'm whatever, which that's not an insult, by the way, like, if anything, it's kind of a compliment, like thank you. You know, like men being like I'm so scared of her and I'm like you, as you should be, um, you know, but I think, at the end of the day, I've been able to see it as just projections of their own experiences and how they feel about themselves. So none of it I've taken personally, and I think that's why I can't really provide like a great example. But you know, it slips through the cracks sometimes, like sometimes I'll see this hate comment or that hate comment or whatever.

Madison Errichiello: 42:12

But I'm like, oh, that's so sad for you, whatever. But I'm like, oh, that's so sad for you.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:18

It's a very protective attitude. I was definitely Googling myself endlessly, looking myself up on Twitter. It was just something so fascinating about seeing how people saw me and I still find that interesting.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 42:31

Obviously there was an ego, massive ego portion to it as well. And then reality TV, kind of the aftermath, like I mean, mean I wasn't necessarily that famous afterwards, but my friends were, and that was back when the bachelor could get you a million followers on on instagram, um, and so I just it. The after effects of the show kind of pull your values in different directions. Like are you going to be a star fucker, a social chaser, you know? Like are you going to disown friends who have bad reputations because they're at it sucked or because things came out about them on social media? So that's kind of all part of it as well. Do you feel like you've had to navigate any of that stuff?

Madison Errichiello: 43:13

I mean it's funny because I just don't feel different, like I don't feel like this has necessarily, like yes, it's changed my life in the sense of, like you know, I'm getting a bag now, like I got signed really quickly. I think I was genuinely so surprised at number one, the amount of screen time that I got. Number one, the amount of screen time that I got, hmm. And number two, how quickly I blew up, blew up, but it's like.

Madison Errichiello: 43:41

I thought things would feel differently and they don't. Like I still feel very much the same and I still feel very much grounded in and myself like I don't know it's. It's cool when people come in. They're like, oh my gosh, like you're, madison, love is blind. Like that's always really fun, but it's more so like I don't see that as me being this celebrity or or anything. It's more so just like. Oh, like I'm meeting my friends, like I'm meeting new friends. Um, so, yeah, I think in my mind I really haven't felt that change. Um, but I I definitely have had to be a little bit more careful about, you know, like the types of people that do want to be my friends now, um, I have experienced that where I have to question people's intentions, I'm like, oh, like, why, why are you so like intense about being my friend right now? But, yeah, other than that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 44:44

I don't think anything has genuinely really changed for me. This is a question I could ask for both of you, but on the flip side of the negative part, is there anything you've learned about yourself for being in such an intense dating? You know public dating spheres. In such an intense dating, you know public dating spheres like anything I imagine, just like looking at yourself, even just on a screen, and just you know, noticing things about you, or just learning from the experience of being there. Is there anything that you're like, oh huh, I know that about me now.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 45:22

I would rather hear her talk.

Madison Errichiello: 45:28

I think, yeah, the only part that was really interesting for me to watch back. I mean, like you've been saying, jacqueline, like it's interesting to see how people perceive you and you know, there were moments where I was really good at deflecting on TV and I didn't realize that that's what I was doing so, like when I come back in and I'm like, oh, breakups taste good and people are like you were so happy to send him home.

Madison Errichiello: 45:50

First of all, I didn't know he was going home. I had no clue, like he still had a connection with Meg, I wasn't sending anyone anywhere. Um, secondly, I was really hurt, but I didn't want to come into a room full of people acting hurt because myself, like how I grew up, I can't show that emotion. I have to be brave, I have to, you know, put on a brave face and and I don't want to show people that I'm hurt because I I don't want them to think that I allowed someone to like take my power from me or whatever. And so, yeah, I come in and I'm like, oh, breakup stays good, but I was deeply, deeply hurt.

Madison Errichiello: 46:28

And so I think that was the first thing. I was like, oh, I'm really good at deflecting thing. And then I think the second one was watching me chase after Alex, when it was very clear that he was like putting up all these like guardrails for me, and I was like, why did I think I deserved that? Like, why did I? Why was that the one thing that you know, I was so sure on when I had so much affirmation coming from other connections, why was it the one that I wasn't getting that from that I went after, I think that was a very eye-opening moment for me.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:05

Do you have an answer to that question?

Madison Errichiello: 47:08

I mean, I think it's just rooted in the trauma of like needing to prove to people that I am a worthy person of you know, I'm worthy of their love and I'm worthy of of their trust. And yeah, I think that's been kind of a pattern in my life that all came to a head on that show, um. So, yeah, it was definitely a pattern that I've I've seen in the past, um, and then got to experience it real time from, like, a different point of view jack, what did you learn about yourself?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:51

I mean I from, just from, like watching the filming back, either experience or watching it back. From the filming it back I learned I'm sort of an aggressive kisser.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 48:04

That was the first thing um I hate to see myself kiss, you know like, oh my gosh, I'm actually so glad I didn't.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 48:13

It's okay, because I know I'm a good kisser, so I was watching about. I was like this is interesting, but whatever, um, that's so funny. I think I actually came across as pretty. I liked how I came across with Ari. I felt pretty cool, confident, like so I don't know. But I mean I think most of what I learned about myself was afterwards, like I learned that I am capable of like sticking to my values and not disowning friends and like not playing too much into what I think fame was pulling me to do. But I also learned that, like I'm very susceptible to my ego in other ways and like very susceptible to envy. To envy, um, I don't know. I mean there's sorts of there's on another podcast that's about us. I can, I can probably come up with more stuff, but I don't. I want to keep talking too much.

Madison Errichiello: 49:05

I'm really curious, um to know, like what was the internet like around the time that your show came out, because I feel like the internet now has such a grasp on reality TV and how people want to portray themselves Like was that like? A big influence for you or how people did portray themselves.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 49:25

Yeah, I mean, I think a couple things. So my my season aired in 2018. And that was the height of, like, the woke movement. So there was a lot of angry liberal energy and like I'm more liberal, right. So I'm not like this isn't me getting you know pro-trumpy or anything, but okay, I was worried. No, it was just that it was like me. All everybody I knew was getting attacked by their own yeah like there was apologies demanded left and right.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 49:57

It was just a lot of like you had to really really watch what you said at all times. And there was, I mean, it was just like it was just the snotty attitude from a lot of people, um, at the same time, like part of that was important and it reformed like how people communicate with each other, and so there was like important stuff too, but there was just a lot of paranoia on the internet at that time, um, and then, of course, you did have the Trump supporters, who were just doing the same thing, but less um in a way, less aversively, because I didn't take them seriously at all. So it was like a highly, highly political yeah highly political environment.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:34

Um, so there was that, but I did. What happened with me is like I had no social media experience before the show. I used it, but very much as like an average consumer. I wasn't trying to be seen in any way and when I came off the show, people were instantly like you have to brand yourself. You have to make use of this once in a lifetime opportunity. You have to post constantly, but you have to like really have a vision. And I was like I don't like what makes me special and I was like PhD girl. So I kind of tried to like lean into that branding and immediately they were like oh, you're not like, you can't. You're using big words, you're fake, you're like trying to seem smarter than the rest of us, like you're not even in a PhD program yet. It was just a lot of like tear down of anything I tried to do and once that kind of idea got into people's heads, there was just no coming back from it. So I just like I, if anything had like an intellectual bent, I would get destroyed.

Madison Errichiello: 51:35

God forbid a woman be educated. Vent, I would get destroyed, god forbid a woman be, educated.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 51:48

So that was, that was my experience. But I also just wasn't very effective on the platform. I mean I'm just not, it's just not for me. So I mean I'm sure a lot of this is my own fault.

Madison Errichiello: 51:57

So I mean.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:57

I'm sure a lot of this is my own fault.

Madison Errichiello: 51:59

That's super interesting. I mean, yeah, I definitely have gotten that same. Like you have to start branding yourself, you have to start you know, which is fine. I think that is something that I can naturally just do, like I have worked in social media before, I have worked in corporate, so like I understand kind of you know the content pillars and I yeah, I get all of that. But I think it's interesting the way that reality TV has kind of morphed into this Like especially I saw this with the men on our season Like I don't want to say anything that could get me canceled, and usually it's just their beliefs, you know, like what they truly believe would get them canceled.

Madison Errichiello: 52:40

Or like a lot of it was very two faced of like well, I'm going to say this to you, but I won't say this on camera, or you know, whatever, and I think people are so terrified of being canceled and being like hated on and no matter who you are, you're gonna get hate from people like no one from our cast came out of that unscathed, you know, and so it's just like if you're gonna get hate, then be hated for something you actually want to stand up for and type of person you're gonna be like. That's kind of my motto.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:14

I mean there is something, though. There is something about you that people seem there's some confidence about you or effectiveness about you that seems to rub people, certain people, the wrong way and it kind of feels sort of similar to my situation, but more from like who you are, what your vibes are, then like the education part of just like. I mean, I see it all the time like women who are like confident or have it going on. They often get torn down and I don't know if it's more by other women or other men, but some of that seems to be operating on you too.

Madison Errichiello: 53:51

Yeah, I, but you know this is happening on a larger scale, but I do feel like I've experienced that just throughout my life on personal levels. I feel like I've been in relationships with men who feel like they have to humble me because, you know, they think I'm trying to be better than them, because I have a better argument, or I say things better than they do, or, um, or it's women who, you know, think that I'm trying to be better than them just by existing. Also, sorry, my dog's drinking water, and he's really loud. He always does this when I'm like in meetings or in interviews.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:29

Um, but yeah.

Madison Errichiello: 54:31

I've experienced that a lot of just people feeling the need to humble me and, um, I am able to not take that personally only because I'm like I see that that comes from a deeply insecure place in your life and there's something in me that causes you to be insecure. But that's not on me, that's on you and I don't know like what's that got to do with me? I don't know. I don't know like what's that got to do with me? I?

Jacqueline Trumbull: 54:57

don't know, I don't know. I mean, on the one hand you've talked about like insecurity within relationships and having to grow up very alone and, um, you know, worried that people will leave, and on the other hand, you have this really confident persona that people can object to Like. Where do you think that confidence comes from?

Madison Errichiello: 55:17

I mean, I think it is just that thing of I've had to be that way.

Madison Errichiello: 55:23

I've had to be really strong, I've had to stand up for myself, like I wasn't always this way, you know, but I've had to learn how to exist in the world as, like the only person who's going to speak up for myself, or you know, the only person who, at the end of the day, is truly going to have my back, like when I don't have parents who I can fall back on for support, or you know whatever.

Madison Errichiello: 55:48

Like I just have to be confident in my decisions. Like I don't have a safety net. I've had to be very sure of myself and very sure in the decisions that I make, because all I have is me and I also just think, like I'm a Leo, like I just I have this like fire about me of like you're not going to tell me what to do or I get to decide who I am, like you're not going to tell me who you think I am. Um, so, not to make everything about astrology, but yeah, I do think it's just that resilience of I get to decide who I am you like we could hear the the work that you've done, the self-love and the confidence?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 56:32

I mean even to the point where you're not giving into the curiosity of reading everything on Reddit and TikTok about you. For other people who have struggled with loss or trauma or relational trauma, can you give a little insight on what was like the most helpful in your journey, like when you say you did a lot of work, like what? What do you think of when you're like, oh, that that thing really made a difference or saved me or helped me yeah, I think it's not.

Madison Errichiello: 57:08

You know, holding on so tightly to things, like it's the idea of just like letting things go and letting things be, um I think in the past that's really harmed me and harmed my relationships of just like trying to make sure that like things stay where I can see them and where I can control them. Or, you know, like not having anything surprise me, um, because being surprised was always a really terrible experience for me. Um, but I think that you know, just having like a looser grip on relationships, or even like jobs or friends or whatever, um has really saved me. Like the hardship of this is how it was supposed to be, or doesn't mean you're not like heartbroken or you're not sad, but I think just like allowing yourself to feel the waves of those of the grief or of the happiness, or just like allowing it to like pass through you without having to actually like put a meaning to it, has been really really helpful.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 58:21

Yeah, therapy mascot. Spokesperson for acceptance.

Madison Errichiello: 58:29

Well, I mean, yeah, it's one of those things where there's people who have been able to float through life They've never really had to, you know, face themselves. But, especially being on reality tv, you are forced to face yourself in ways that you probably don't really want to.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 58:46

Um, I don't know if we have kimmy. You have any last questions?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 58:51

no, I think this was great and any anything that you feel like, any kind of tips for people who have gone through you know what you have and with trauma and loss, I know that. I like the, the advice to like not take things as as you know, not to hold on so tightly. Anything else that you would want to, any words of wisdom or tips for people.

Madison Errichiello: 59:17

I mean honestly, just therapy has been a really great resource for me throughout my life and I think that's you know why I've been able to get to this place. Lots of self-reflection, lots of self-awareness. So yeah, therapy. I highly recommend it.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 59:43

Okay, fabulous, um, anything that you want to promote of your own. Um, where can people find you?

Madison Errichiello: 59:49

Um, I am on Instagram and Tik TOK. So at madserrR-R, mads-er, I'm online.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:02

Perfect. Well, thank you so so much for coming. I'm really really glad that we got to have this conversation. I think you have so much wisdom to give to others from just like a psychoeducational place, like everything you've said is very in line with.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:17

Like what we know works Right. So I think you know you're a great advocate for all of this and it was so lovely meeting you. For our little helpers. If you'd love mass as much as we do, please give us a five-star rating on Apple podcasts and Spotify and we'll see you all next week.

Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:00:39

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