Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey, little helpers, today we have a different topic, one that I had actually never heard of until a follower of ours suggested it. It's called the drama triangle, and this really kind of blends in well, I think, with what we talk about, with a lot of like personality disorder, behavior and interpersonal relationships. So I'm going to kick it over to Kibbe to tell us what the drama triangle is and tell us how cool a mind can help.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Yeah, this is a really interesting topic because it's something that I learned in family systems therapy first. So the idea, in the very simplest form, is that when you have a family or close relationships with someone with mental illness that's dysfunctional, often there are three major roles. One is the victim, the person who's hurt, the person who feels helpless, the person who wants help. You have the perpetrator, the person who is causing the pain, who has more power and control. And then the third is the rescuer, someone who rushes in to fix it, to save the victim from the perpetrator and try to, you know, fix the whole situation, fix the whole situation. So, as we're talking about these different roles, what we're really talking about is getting stuck in this toxic dynamic of someone always needing rescuing and someone always fixing and someone always like hurting that really maintains mental health problems in a family and really maintains like toxic dynamics. So if you have noticed that when we're describing these roles, if you notice that this is something that you relate to, like you find that you're always trying to help your loved one who has mental illness and sometimes feeling like you're the bad guy for it or things like that, then this is the really the kind of stuff that Kula Mind is made to help you with.

Speaker 2: 2:02

So, again, kula Mind is our online platform and community that will walk you through all the different strategies we talk about for supporting a loved one with mental illness and really supporting yourself. So we teach you how to break toxic patterns, set boundaries, respond calmly when things get hard and to really support yourself and find your own peace. So if you're interested and it's really working with me one-on-one and I only have a few more slots open, so I'm just, you know, if you're interested, check out coolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click on get started. The link is also in the show notes so you could check it out there. So you could just book a free call with me and just chat about what you're going through and we can talk about how I can help.

Speaker 1: 2:49

I think what's important about the drama triangle to understand is that these roles can shift. So you may go from being the rescuer, where you know you're always kind of trying to solve the other person's problems, you're always trying to change their behavior or, like figure it out, but then if that person doesn't accept your help or doesn't, uh like, take your advice, basically then you might switch into the persecutor role where it's like well, screw you. Then. Like clearly all this is on you, these are all your problems, I tried to help, I can't help.

Speaker 1: 3:28

And you know the victim can also kind of go from like I think the difference between the victim and the persecutor is, like the persecutor tends to blame other people for all of their problems and they're very harsh and kind of critical, and the victim is likely to blame themselves more and basically say I'm worthless, I can't do anything right, etc. But what can happen sometimes is that, like the victim can kind of elicit help from a rescuer, but you know, when that rescuer gets fed up or when they're still not better than they, can turn into the persecutor, where they're like nobody, nobody wants to help me, nobody cares. You know, everyone else is terrible, yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2: 4:17

So these roles are dynamic.

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yeah, I find that that's the most interesting part. I love how it's weird, because when our when our listener introduced this topic to us, she gave us an article, which I'll link in the show notes to, that talks about how the roots of this drama triangle it's called Cartman drama triangle is from analyzing fairy tales and I was like wait what? And then, reading about it, it's like, oh yeah, drama starts. It's like the stories in fairy tales.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Like the drama starts with having these three roles. Right, it's like someone needs help and then another person is, you know, causing the problem, and then there's someone who's rescuing. Right, if you think about like Sleeping Beauty or Cinderella, like there's always like some kind of dynamic where there's someone that's helpless and wants something and then there's forces that are helping them towards it and getting in the way. Right, like there's the villain and then the protagonist and then the hero. Right, there's all these different kinds of roles. And this idea of the drama triangle was proposed by Dr Stephen Cartman in 1968, who was a psychiatrist, and this is something from transactional analysis which I'm not familiar with, but it's really trying to understand the patterns of unhealthy relationships and in family systems therapy.

Speaker 2: 5:49

They also talk about triangulation right Having like three, and the common one that is seen is like the two parents and then a third kid or like two siblings and a parent where the common dynamic is like two siblings and a parent where the common dynamic is tell your father that I'm not talking to him and I want him to help me out. Well, tell your mother that I'm sick of this, right. Like putting kids in the middle or putting someone in the middle. And it could be really subtle, like it's not always so clear, you know that's. It's not as dramatic as like a sleeping beauty situation, but it's sometimes there.

Speaker 2: 6:26

There are these roles like there's someone who's the mediator in the family, right. There's someone who's the problem child and then there's the other one who's like the narcissistic, oppressive parent who's causing all the issues, right. So there's always like this, these subtle roles that people fall into when this dysfunctional dynamics, and they do shift. I think that's the coolest part. It's not like you're just the victim all the time, which I think that some people do like fall into those roles more often. But you can change, you could flip to the different roles. I think that was so interesting.

Speaker 1: 7:00

I okay, I'm not super familiar with this topic, Um, I'm learning about it today and therefore maybe some of my confusion is because I don't know enough. But part of this feels obvious, like, and I can't figure out how you're supposed to get out of it. Like it's obvious to me that some people are going to want to help people some of the time, and it's obvious to me that some people are going to want to help people some of the time. And it's obvious to me that some people are going to feel victimized some of the time. And it's obvious to me that some people are going to be critical and fed up some of the time. And it's like, are those roles really? Or is there like, is there a problem to that? Like, is there any way out of it? Or are we just sort of describing, like I don't know what it's like to be a person I don't know.

Speaker 2: 7:46

There's something that feel that I'm missing here yeah, yeah, because this is these are such obvious rules in any problem like, right, someone gets hurt, someone does the hurting and then there's someone who fixes it. Um, I think this is something that's brought up in family systems therapy and I also I'm just learning about this too, but I really love it's so applicable to all the things that we talk about when the idea is that we're not looking at one person as the problem, or one person has an illness, but the illness is in the system, and in a system of a family, it's almost kind of like there's this structure, there's this dynamic that it has to maintain itself and all of these people play a role in it. Right, they're kind of like a cog in the machine, and sometimes people are so like, what's most important about that for the family is that they want to maintain stability, right, and they almost choose it over, you know, making a change, even if it's good, because stability keeps the family alive and keeps it together. So, of course, yeah, everyone gets hurt. Yeah, there's like everyone gets hurt about it. But this is the drama triangle is in a situation where there's always drama and conflict happening that doesn't get resolved.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Right, it's like a self-sustaining system that is constantly like doing its thing and when it gets dysfunctional is that when people like switch around and people tend to switch these roles because this is not working, this is not ultimately satisfying your need, right? It's, for example, like, as you said, if the rescuer really wants to rescue and help and fix a person who's sick or who's the one who's helpless, then they get exhausted and they they feel hurt and they feel tired so that because of that, they flip into the victim like how many times have I been in the situation like like this is like almost like caregiver burnout, right, where you're like helping, helping, helping, helping, helping, and then you're like this is not working. That person is still staying stuck. I'm still staying stuck, fine, I'm done that more of the persecutor. And well, no, you're trying to fix, you're trying to help them.

Speaker 1: 10:09

Yeah, You're trying to help them but then you get burnt out and you say, fine, I'm done, like this is unfixable. But the victim would say, like I'm there's something wrong with me, Right?

Speaker 2: 10:17

Well, it depends on. It depends on what happens, right?

Speaker 2: 10:20

And how how that person, if I'm like, let's say, the fixer, rescuer, I'm trying to fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, and I get so tired of it and it isn't working. It depends on where I want to flip to right. That's not always clear. I could flip to the victim where I'm like this is so hard for me, Can't you see how hard it is for me? I'm helpless and I'm burnt out and depressed. Or you become the perpetrator, where you're like no, you got to do this now, I'm just taking you to, I'm going to fine, and then you get aggressive right, so it depends and then cause more hurt yourself.

Speaker 1: 10:53

Or just be like okay, you're unhelpful. Like there's, you know you. You don't want to be helped, fine. Like that's a problem that you have in your personality. Like Like, I just did this with my friend right. Like I flipped from the rescuer to the persecutor which I don't.

Speaker 1: 11:05

I have. I have no interest in actually persecuting her, but just in my own mind I'm like highly critical of her because I got burnt out on on helping. But I'm not sitting here thinking like I'm incapable of helping people, but I, I mean, I understand that other people could. They'd be like, oh, something's wrong with me if I can't fix this. And I feel like we could do that as therapists, like when it feels like our job to rescue, and then we're not able to rescue, and then it's like oh, I'm not a good therapist, there's something wrong with me.

Speaker 2: 11:33

Or you go like oh, I'm like I've seen actually in that dynamic you're talking about, I've seen you flip to the victim where you're like that really hurts me and I'm like you know you bring attention, bring attention to your hurt, right, and then not fully into the victim. But you you talk about your hurt versus like fine, get away, and then you become the perpetrator of like I'm the one who abandons. But the difference with you and your dynamic is it it didn't maintain, right? You?

Speaker 1: 12:02

You broke out of it. Okay, I mean, I guess I just I'm kind of like yeah, like when you try to do something and it doesn't work, you're like of course you're going to feel bad and then feel bad for yourself and want other people to listen to you. Like, is that dysfunctional? I just, I guess part of me is like this makes just normal human behavior seem dysfunctional, like I don't know who wouldn't be in these roles at any given time in life. Like it.

Speaker 2: 12:35

You know it seems like it's not right. It's not saying that if you're a victim and someone else is a perpetrator, then you're stuck in this triangle for all of time.

Speaker 1: 12:46

It's a triangle.

Speaker 2: 12:46

for a reason it's not like someone's hurting you and then you're done, you resolve it. It's a triangle that's maintained the dysfunction and it spins around in its own toxic cycle. It's a cyclical thing. So an example would would be I think. I think actually I'm at fault with this. I've been in this a lot. I think this feels a little bit more natural to me because me, being a child of divorce, I definitely felt like in a triangle. I definitely felt like there was some system between me and my two parents that was maintaining dysfunction. Right, it felt productive because, you know, someone was hurt and we were yelling at each other and blah, blah, blah. But there was always like this. We were like glued together with this drama.

Speaker 2: 13:50

And the drama was always like, was always kicked off by someone being super hurt, someone being the quote, the person who hurt, and the other one was trying to fix it. And I definitely, in that space, felt like sometimes I was the victim of my mom's like you know, my mom's stuff, the fights and stuff. And then I was running to my dad for help and my dad would call my mom, being like how could you do this to our daughter?

Speaker 2: 14:08

Stop it blah, blah, blah. And then she would get hurt by my dad saying things, and so she'd be like, oh, I'm so hurt because of what you, because what he did, and then I would, I would actually have to go back to her to make her feel better because of you know the hurt that she got from my dad, right? So it wasn't like, okay, we all talked this out and we figured it out and we're going to move forward. And it was a. It was a triangulation of everyone playing a part of maintaining a pain.

Speaker 1: 14:40

Okay, that's helpful.

Speaker 2: 14:41

And what's? What's interesting is why they shift is, and what's interesting is why they shift is because it doesn't. What this triangle doesn't do is meet emotional needs in the long run it doesn't help you grow, but also the shift shifts away from a painful reality. So it's almost kind of like a weird avoidance strategy to shift into the different roles and I'm still trying to digest what that means. But it's basically like if the role isn't working, they shift to another part to kind of like step out of.

Speaker 1: 15:16

Well, yeah, I mean, if you imagine, if you imagine somebody who's narcissistic, narcissistic, then you know they are likely to be a persecutor much of the time. They're likely to be highly critical, feel entitled, think that every, every problem in their life is somebody else's fault, right, because they can't look at work to then. Then they then as soon as like narcissistic injury happens, so somebody criticizes them, then they flip hard into the victim role. They can't do anything, right? How can I feel this way? But then also it seems like waffling between persecutor and victim. I think that's partly. What confuses me is that both the persecutor and the victim seem like victims to me. What do you mean? Well, the persecutor saying everything is somebody else's problem, but that's still. It's kind of like saying my problems are somebody else's problems, but the victim says my problems are my own problems, but both of those two characters seem like victims to me. You're either a victim of your own shit or you're a victim of somebody else's shit, but you're still a victim yeah, let's, let's.

Speaker 2: 16:35

Problems and pain probably all three will have it, but I but maybe I'm seeing this as like who has power, right perpetrator is the one who has power and is trying to fix problems and their pain through power and control over the victim. The victim feels like they're powerless. It's kind of like when we talk about this and with people with borderline personality disorder, how they can flip from active passivity to, you know, being like the competent one, or it's like did they have power and control and they're doing things, or are they helpless and hopeless. And and you need to help me, same with in narcissistic personality disorder they flip from grandiose I can do everything to the vulnerable nothing and everyone hates me, right, and so you have that flip.

Speaker 2: 17:20

I'm nothing and everyone hates me, right, and so you have that flip. But then you have a third person who's like mediating and dealing and helping them with trying to get out of this, but really they're not, I mean there doesn't have to be a third person, though.

Speaker 1: 17:36

Like the, what I was reading is that you can have this with two people. It's just that your roles will flip between the three we. You were going to analyze my ex.

Speaker 2: 17:52

There's a really sad comfort that I have in being a third party right. That's like this feeling that I've had in couples therapy when I was doing couples therapy or with friends who are, with friends who are fighting. It's like you're, you feel comfortable being the mediator, but there's something really familiar and comforting with it. So, for example, in your last relationship when you two were having a fight, you were the rescuer. Yeah, sometimes Right, like like one of you would be like, oh, talk to that person, right, because?

Speaker 2: 18:26

they're not listening and the problem was that you two weren't listening to each other's feet. Like you two had a conflict right In in yourself. Right, like you two should have broken up and did break up. But like, right, like there was, there was like issues in the relationship, but sometimes you would pull me in or someone else to try to like translate, to try to listen to one right and try to talk to the other person right and I.

Speaker 2: 18:58

I actually said this to some. I think I forgot who I said this to, but I remember saying I. I think um your ex's, like thoughts and feelings were sometimes so aggressive and like hostile that. I was like, okay, fine, let me let him vent that to me so I can absorb that, that first bit of anger so that he doesn't say that stuff to her right.

Speaker 2: 19:23

And so I would have like hour, hour long conversations where he would just like spew vitriol at me and then I would like try to validate or try to be like, try to do all my things to try to get them around it, and then eventually I would soften them up and I'll be like okay, great, then he could go and talk to her now because, maybe he's in a more open position and I guess that works sometimes.

Speaker 2: 19:46

I don't know, but like it worked enough, but it was dysfunctional because what I was trying to do is absorb the badness, so that. But then, like that doesn't really work in the long term, that doesn't actually fix what's going on between you. It's a. It's a. It's a bandaid right.

Speaker 1: 20:04

Well, it hurts you in the long run and also prevents me from getting the full scale of the information that would have allowed me to leave him theoretically.

Speaker 2: 20:14

Yeah, like the time that I flipped into perpetrator was when he went on a rant about how he thought you're narcissistic or like all the bad things, and he was just like and I was like, yeah, she definitely has those qualities. Sometimes she could be narcissistic, yeah, that you know. Yep, and then, yeah, she's worried about her looks or I don't know.

Speaker 2: 20:36

And then he went to you and I was like kibby said you're a narcissist, right, and suddenly I'm the perpetrator, right, and so I was like like I was like I know better, I know these, I know these roles switch and that's the key part for everyone listening to this if you think that you're just going to be the victim or the rescuer Sometimes, sometimes switch to the other ones and and then I've also been the victim, like when he gets, when he got, when I was trying to mediate with him and then he got mad and then flipped into attacking me or threatening me. I was a victim and I was like I can't do this, I'm helpless. Oh my God, right, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:20

And then I'll turn to you for support, Right?

Speaker 2: 21:22

So sometimes it's just like it's basically pain that's being tossed around between three people and really what it needed. What needed to happen was that you two needed to like I needed to step out. You needed no mediators, you just needed to like be with each other and be like let's work out whatever this is, whatever this pain is between us, like, let's work it out I think so with bpd.

Speaker 1: 21:46

What I was reading is that, like, what can often happen is they start out as a rescuer, which I'm sure, and they can also start as a victim, but whatever. But it can be common to start out as a rescuer because they'll see other people who are in distress and remind them, like of themselves, for instance. So, like I just watched this play out with my sister and her ex I hope to God, forever ex where you know they met in rehab and whenever my sister goes to rehab she always like, highly identifies with the men there and she's always, she always tries to rescue, rescue, rescue, rescue, cause it's a good place for her right, because normally she feels disempowered, um, and kind of like a victim to alcohol and other stuff. So with him it's like she tried, you know, she rescued him and you know, gave her her, her, gave him her time and her energy and her sympathy, and then, you know, when she would want space or something else for her future, like he would switch heavily into the persecutor role and then she would flip into the victim role and just be like, oh my, like I'm, you know, I guess I have to accept any amount of treatment from him because you know I lied or I messed up or you know, whatever the case may be.

Speaker 1: 23:12

And then he would do something so egregious that then she might become the persecutor for like half a second and then would kind of flip back into the victim role again, um, and it was just like on and on and on Um. And then he would do this all the time, right, he'd be like you are a terrible lying alcoholic slut and you just cheat on me, which. The story has been way more complicated than that. And so, therefore, I'm going to hire private investigators to come spy on you and I'm going to stalk you and I'm going to, you know, hurt you, and I deserve to do that, because you, you know you keep throwing away my love. How dare you. And so it was that kind of I think that's the thing is it's like a victim stance that allows him to then perpetrate.

Speaker 2: 24:05

That's interesting, I think that's that's. That's an interesting wrinkle about how victimhood can be weaponized to actually perpetrate Right. So even even the drama triangle might have broken down now and collapsed and be like you can. You know you can be a perpetrator and hurt someone by being the rescuer or you know, and perpetrate from victimhood. So, wow, this is okay.

Speaker 1: 24:33

Way more complex, way more complex well, this was my ex too, like always flipping between persecution and victimhood, and then you know, then what can happen is then she feels really bad, or I felt really bad with my ex, right, and then they flip into the rescuer oh, it's okay, I'm here for you, I love you still, like I, you know, I'm sorry I did that, but like let's not kiss your boo-boo, make it better, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Yeah, I think it's interesting and I think that might just highlight what happens with the shifts. The shifts force the other ones maybe into other roles too. Right, we talk about this with gaslighting and darvo and I've, you know, seen them like your relationship, where he'll say something to hurt you, you'll be upset and then he'll go into the the childlike victim role and be like oh, it's because I'm, you know, I can't, I'm so bad, and then you would. It would pull reassurance and sympathy and caring from you right right.

Speaker 2: 25:42

So it just like it forces the other person into the other roles that you you know, to see what happens and to try to get needs met by, like, flipping around right right.

Speaker 1: 25:57

I guess part of me, though, is like okay, how, how do we get out of it? Like, if somebody's in distress, I'm going to find it pretty hard not to make them feel better, and that's not always a bad, I mean, that's usually a good thing, right. It's just in this dysfunctional systems where something else is needed.

Speaker 2: 26:14

Yeah, I'm also wondering how does? Well, now the answer to the question is coming to my head. But I was thinking like how does this not happen all the time in couples therapy? Because, you're literally introducing a third person. Who's?

Speaker 2: 26:29

the rescuer right. And commonly people don't like couples therapy because they're like the therapist was against me there, because they're like the couple, the therapist was against me. So suddenly, like you know, the therapist would go from, you know, the rescuer to the perpetrator and then sometimes they become the victim when the couple or someone like starts yelling and be like, how could you? You know you're a bad therapist, how could you do that? Right? So it's like couples therapy almost introduces this drama triangle.

Speaker 2: 27:00

But I mean, I think, similarly with what we've been always talking about, which is getting stuck, is basically like, how do we get unstuck? And I think that for the drama triangle, family therapists will say, okay, this is a system that's maintaining itself and it's a dysfunctional system. All families have a system and a structure that maintains itself. Okay, so it's not like three people are always going to be dysfunctional, but when it, when there's drama and conflict and pain being passed around without it being resolved, it's almost like they're bonding over this, over the misery, right, and how do we relate to that misery? So it really is about breaking up the triangle. That gets it, that gets the change right I'm sure you could change it in multiple ways.

Speaker 2: 27:51

You could change a system by changing one of the cogs in the in the machine but it's really like family therapists would break up the triangle, and what that looks like is so when one of the family therapy trainings I I went to, she said okay, the triangulation always happens. Often happens in families where the parents or siblings or whatever, and then there's like. Like, let's say, two parents are fighting, they're dysfunctional, and then they have a kid, um, and the kid is the mediator, the go-between.

Speaker 1: 28:26

Tell your father tell your mother I'm not gonna right.

Speaker 2: 28:29

What happens a lot in in that kind of system is like often the kid gets really anxious because that kid is absorbing and and involved in triangle of the parent's pain in their own marriage, right? So they're not getting their needs met as a kid, they're living in and being raised in their dysfunction as a couple. So what you do is you break up the triangle, you get the kid out of there. You kick the kid out and say parents, you're going to sit and talk about your problems. And then a good family therapist will not take over that role of rescuer but just like continually hand it back to them and say I'm not going to rescue you, I'm not going to rescue anyone.

Speaker 2: 29:18

Okay, because the triangle, if you think about it as like a control thing, is like one person has all the power, one has a you know not as much power, and then there's a third person trying to mediate the power right, dynamic, but it's like no, no, no, no, it's, we're not gonna, we're not gonna polarize it. Everyone has power here. One person feels hurt, but maybe all of you feel hurt, but you gotta, you all have to rescue yourself okay so take, so collapse the the triangle into a dyad.

Speaker 2: 29:49

Like, just actually try, have people talk about things directly. No, tell your mom this, tell your mom that. No, the parents have to talk to each other about their pain. And that's really hard because a you're breaking up a system, b you're like, you know, there's nothing to soften, there's nothing to mediate, it's just open yourself up to the pain of what's actually in between you two okay, and what if it's just two people that are role switching, like there's no third mediator, there's no.

Speaker 2: 30:23

I mean then it's all the stuff we talked about in couples therapy and communication. It's about both parties taking accountability. It's about both parties describing their experience and listening to the other person's experience and then finding a mid ground that satisfies both of their needs.

Speaker 2: 30:48

You know, okay, the other person's experience and then finding a mid ground that satisfies both of their needs. You know, okay, do you feel like you? You're about to be mostly a rescuer in life? Right, you feel I identify as a rescuer, but I often probably I I identify as a you. You know what? Actually, now that I think about it, growing up I felt like the perpetrator and sometimes and there's other words for this other like scapegoat.

Speaker 1: 31:10

I think, yeah, Was that a victim?

Speaker 2: 31:15

I thought of myself as a problem and like causing a lot of the problems, but kind of like reacting to everything. And then I grew up and I was like I want to shift out of this. I'm going to be a rescuer. So, I became a therapist and like focus on helping people.

Speaker 2: 31:32

But, then I only recently realized how much I probably have been a victim too. I really I really under value my experiences as a victim and I think, like we've talked about this where, ever since like healing from cancer, I was like, oh my God, like the amount of abuse that I had, like I always thought about like, oh, I'm the problem. I was a problem. I did like life was chaotic and I recognized that, like my parents, pain and mental illness and addiction like definitely affected me, but I didn't really see myself as a victim, yeah, until recently, and I was like, oh, this make this is all making sense, because a lot of my symptoms and the way I look at myself and how much I do things to prevent disaster and feel bad about myself all the time and constantly feel like I can't rest because I have to prove myself, is like from times where I've been a victim.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Yeah, so yeah, so I just, I think, I, I, I've only recently realized, how much I should have slowed down your persecutor side like to be a victim you seem less critical.

Speaker 1: 32:57

Yeah, like more, like calmer, um, sweeter, I don't know. I don't know if that's from recognizing that, like you were, you've been mistreated yeah, I think.

Speaker 2: 33:12

I think the the perpetrator feels a little bit more comfortable because it feels like I have control and power right, like with my ex. It was so confusing because he I strongly identified as a victim and like he was like oh I, I can't possibly live normal life. You know, I have to just smoke weed in your basement and not really engage.

Speaker 2: 33:46

And I would be like yeah, yeah, yeah, he was a victim. And I I was like, oh sorry, yeah, he identified as a victim and I would eventually get so like worried and overwhelmed and confused why, like he wasn't working or doing that? I would be like what the fuck is going on? Like why, why aren't you doing anything? And then he would collapse into like oh, you're yelling at me.

Speaker 2: 34:08

And then I would feel so guilty, right so I was I was like, oh my god, like I'm, I'm and he would say this like I'm pressuring him, I'm oppressing him, I'm the one with, I'm the one with all the power, and I'm like yelling at him for not doing anything and making me feel bad about himself, but at the same time, I felt helpless and powerless, um, especially because I had to end up like supporting him in so many ways that I didn't agree to, and like agreeing to a lot of like. My boundaries were constantly violated all the time um.

Speaker 1: 34:41

So I was like just with your hand feeding him sandwiches was, uh yeah, my personal favorite anecdote, but like look how weird it was.

Speaker 2: 34:50

I mean the stories, for for people have no idea what we're talking about. Oh my god this is.

Speaker 1: 34:57

I hope he's not listening and feed him sandwiches, because he would get too hungry to pick up his own hands and feed them to himself.

Speaker 2: 35:04

Yeah he was like a 30 something year old doctor who would. I would be like are you going to be hungry, should I get dinner? And he'd be like, no, I'm not hungry, and I'm like you're going to be hungry in like an hour. You're like, no, it's fine. And then he would get so hungry that he would just collapse onto the couch and be like, oh okay, give me a second, I'll get. I'll get up and get some food. I just can't. I can't even. Oh. And so I would bring him food and eat it to him so he could get up a real rescue.

Speaker 2: 35:36

I mean, it was real. It was real infantilizing, like I had a baby. I literally I honestly my baby is a lot more like go get him then. But it made me feel like I had so much power and he was so helpless and I was like, and so when I felt hurt or confused or whatever, it was really confusing Because I, I was like, but I have all this power and control and I'm the one who's determining everything and I'm the go-getter, alpha, whatever, but it didn't feel that way, so it was like really, really confusing yeah and so me being in the persecutor role feels comfortable, because I'm like yeah, I have, I have agency.

Speaker 2: 36:18

But then I was like do I?

Speaker 1: 36:25

Well, that feels like the more normal role for the parent to be in is the flip between rescuer and persecutor. Ideally, you spend more time in the rescuer role if it's your child. But that's discipline. Right? It's like I'm going to discipline you now. It gets pretty weird when parents are victims and then their child has to be parentified. But yeah, so you were flipping between rescue and persecutor.

Speaker 2: 36:45

Yeah, yeah, I really didn't want to be the rescuer a lot, but I had to. Yeah, now that I think about it, she would. My mom would collapse and you know be, you know know need physical help, like going to the hospital or like be hurt that I left, slash, was kicked out my house and she would call me like how could you leave me? So I'd have to come back because I would feel so bad about hurting her by leaving. Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's these. Are it really interesting? Okay, I'm learning, I'm like piecing this together as we talk about it.

Speaker 2: 37:28

It's really a system that is maintained by the idea that there is a imbalance of power and who seems to wield it to cause the pain, right, well, I mean, even if even in the origin stories of of the fairy tales, like sleeping beauty and cinderella my goodness, like what an obvious difference in power that's set up from the beginning, right, like cinderella was a I don't know, like a princess or aristocrat or whatever she was, and then the step evil, stepmother, takes over and takes away literally all her power to make her, yeah, like a maid. So if she was, if it was just like two equal women battling it out and some magic mirror doing all in the very godmother coming in to rescue no one. Like it's not this, it's not, it's not the same as like oh, there's a, there's someone has all the power and we got to rescue the, the one with no power, because that's not fair. We got to fight for justice, right, there's almost like this third force has to come in to make it right yeah, I mean I do.

Speaker 1: 38:35

I guess it's important to note. The victim role is somebody who feels chronically helpless, incapable of change, powerless, ashamed often. But they're not actually a victim of circumstance, so I don't think that you would. So Cinderella was a victim of circumstance, so that's why we like her and don't see her as the victim role in this, even though, yes, that's the fairy tale kind of role that he's noticing. But it's like it's. It's a stance that one takes.

Speaker 2: 39:14

I mean interesting.

Speaker 1: 39:16

I mean, that's just what this article is saying.

Speaker 2: 39:23

That there actually isn't a real power differential. I mean, I can imagine that when you deal with families, there is a power difference, right, like there's often, like the father or someone else who's stronger, right, who has more financial means or physical strength, and then the other one who's more like helpless and scared, and then the kid who's trying to save his mom from the abuse Right.

Speaker 1: 39:43

So that that's an example of like real power differential, but then acts or feels like one, denying their ability to take responsibility or make decisions. I'm guessing they're making that distinction, because if you are in a dysfunctional situation because you are quite literally the victim, like you are being beaten on, you yourself are not maintaining the dysfunction, like you don't have a choice. That's not, you know, that has nothing to do with your personality necessarily. Now I mean obviously like one hopes that you would leave, but what maintains the dysfunction is your taking of that stance, sort of voluntarily, yeah, or something I mean subconsciously.

Speaker 2: 40:35

But maybe that's why the roles can shift, because people actually, yeah, you could trade the power a little bit more easily versus situations that are very clear-cut, like this is a boss and this is an employee and one is harassed, and there's like an hr that comes in and has like rescues, and this is very clear-cut, like this is resolved, because this is a problem yeah, like if you, if if you come across a man beating up a woman in the streets and then you rescue that woman, you're not going to say that two of those people were maintaining a dysfunctional relationship, like one was an actual victim, one was an actual rescuer.

Speaker 1: 41:13

That needed to happen, then we removed. But if somebody is taking up that like my ex was always taking the stance of the victim, the victim to his girlfriend's whorish past. How could she do this to me before we met? How?

Speaker 2: 41:31

could also people know, like if you haven't heard this before, he would um like get angry with her and ruminate over just the idea that she had exes or had hooked up or dated people in the past it was as bananas as we're talking about, so he's not a victim of circumstance, right, but he's taking up that stance.

Speaker 1: 41:55

So then I had to comfort him and become the rescuer yeah and then I would get sick of that and then be like fuck you and I'm persecutor. Yeah, instead of saying you know what? I'm not gonna participate, I'm not gonna rescue you from these feelings of victimhood. Yeah, because I had sex before you.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Yeah, I wonder if it's not as cleanly in the triangle, like three people. I think that just seems to be maybe more common or anecdotal. Um, and this is all what we're talking about is all different roles involving maintaining a toxic dynamic which is like almost like maintaining pain right, it's.

Speaker 2: 42:47

It's, of course, every situation I mean that's. This is why the the drama triangle was talking about like drama starts with these three, but, like at the end of the fairy tale, everything's fine, right, like it gets resolved. Like you know, cinderella becomes a princess, whatever. But when we're talking about in family systems, therapy or like the drama triangle, it's like it is ongoing. It's a system of avoiding resolving pain and keeping it alive, with three people involved and playing a role in that and when one person is done with that role, they switch to the other ones, but the roles are the things that are stable.

Speaker 1: 43:26

Wait, no, but the roles shift. The roles are stable, but the people in the roles are different.

Speaker 2: 43:31

Yeah, okay, yeah. What role are you most comfortable in? What do you think?

Speaker 1: 43:38

Rescuer, I guess I mean I don't think I. Typically I sometimes criticize people behind their backs, but I feel like that's kind of normal. I mean it's usually when I get fed up, when I perceive them as being victim or perpetrator, then I'll be like you know they're perpetuating their own problems'll be like you know they're, you know they're perpetuating their own problems, but I don't know. I mean I have an allergy to being a victim. But certainly, yeah, I mean I I feel like I am the victim. When it comes to more instrumental stuff, like, um, I have the opposite of apparent competence when I need to set up a tent or analyze data.

Speaker 2: 44:25

And then I'm the damsel in distress you are you were, yeah, you were, you play victim, a lot Like you're like oh my God, I can't do this analysis. And then I sit next to you and you're like okay, I do this and this. And then I'm like you knew how to do it, like you just didn't think so or you didn't want to do it, you want to make someone else do it.

Speaker 1: 44:45

I'm so helpless.

Speaker 2: 44:48

I had a friend who I couldn't believe, like I never did this before, and I was like wow, the balls, the, the, the female labia to do this. She said that she was a little girl and she would have suitcases and when she was traveling she would stand on the bottom or the top of the staircase and just look at the staircase with like a confused and scared look and do that until someone would carry her stuff down.

Speaker 2: 45:18

She was like that was just the way I did it. I would just stand there and I just kind of like look worried at the stairs until someone carried her suitcases. That's what you do with data analysis.

Speaker 1: 45:32

Yeah, yeah, and it's because data analysis makes me panic.

Speaker 2: 45:38

Yeah, I'm publicly outing you. You actually can do more of this stuff. So anyone out there who thinks that jacqueline's a victim? But, however, you are allergic to the victim role because there are times there are there's a lot about your experience where, like you don't, you will like contort your mind to justifying things to, to avoid the victim role, like if someone was like actively mean to you or like in your relationship or otherwise, you would be like, well, that makes sense, I understand why he would do that. I mean, I, I definitely triggered him in this way. And almost to the point where sometimes you will like pretend that you're like this evil, you know, like Machiavellian, like, well, this, you know I did this, and that I'm like, no, that's, that's just like your way of thinking that you had more way, more power and control than you did.

Speaker 1: 46:30

So yeah, I mean, that's why I told everyone.

Speaker 2: 46:32

I was a narcissist for like five years. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:36

But I mean the most, like you know. I mean I ended that relationship and, like the friendship and the, the most prominent emotion I had was guilt. So that's the rescuer's emotion right I?

Speaker 2: 46:46

I think that in both of those scenarios you don't say like that was really hurtful, like even things like sometimes like your family members will say something and like your sister will say something mean to you or like you know your ex relationship, you know, and you would. You, you would get angry, kind of like how I would get angry, like how dare you? Like, why does he think this? Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1: 47:10

But you wouldn't be like that really hurt and actually I'm kind of scared You'd be like well, it's because I did have a assorted past and I'm like, oh, my god, okay, like yeah, yeah. I mean it's good that I've found another rescuer to date so that I don't have to take up that role all the time.

Speaker 2: 47:40

Well, even beyond that, there's no dysfunction. There's not as obvious dysfunction, at least not that you know. So it's not like you know, everyone could be free to be hurt sometimes and hurt someone else, and it's not something like you and your current partner like kind of toss around the soccer ball of pain. It's like you know things seem to happen and resolve and you know. A really interesting example I just thought of of a drama triangle is the white. How far are you in the White Lotus in?

Speaker 1: 48:13

the third season. I finished it.

Speaker 2: 48:15

The three women Uh-huh the three women-huh the three women, like three girlfriends um this is why like friends, friends of you know, three are tough because, like, they shit talk each other when the other one is away, yeah right. And then they shift around. Who was hurt, who was the one? Who's the bad one, who like and they all were kind of at fault at that like you have the girl with short hair who's just like.

Speaker 2: 48:42

Oh, you know, like I'm just trying to yeah I forgot the names, but oh, I'm just trying to help. But then she was like really causing some like drama and then, and you could see in that whole season, like they were just cycling through drama. It wasn't like they had a problem, one was a victim, was a perpetrator and everyone was like resolved it. It was a passed around pain and at the end I think they just kind of I don't want to give it away, but I think they were like like this is what binds us Right, Like they kind of they, they, they all kind of like did the right thing. And this is, you know, the tip to get rid of the drama triangle you like communicate openly and actually address the pain.

Speaker 2: 49:22

But I think that they were a little bit. You could be like. They were like yeah, that like we are close because we go to talk to each other and this is how our friendship goes.

Speaker 1: 49:34

Yeah, but I also, laurie, subverted her role. You know she decided to say out loud like I feel like a victim sometimes but really I'm lucky to have you and I'm not going to, I'm not going to lean into envy and persecution, right, I'm going to say I'm glad you have such a beautiful face, I'm glad you have such a beautiful family. I, you know I'm I'm not going to take up the role that I usually take up when I feel victimized.

Speaker 2: 50:03

Yeah, so that's another. I guess that's another tip is like if you notice yourself, I guess it's all like I guess it is stepping out of roles in general. I think that when we talk about dysfunctional families and the roles you play, the problem is you just completely becoming a role right their freedom and autonomy and agency. Um, it's like there has to be a victim where they never admit fault. They're the ones who, completely helpless, and they're being hurt by other people.

Speaker 1: 50:51

Right, I feel like that's like the blaming one, but I'm gonna this episode is coming out after this is recorded, but I think taking a we care frame is also helpful. So, basically, like understanding, powerless to an extent, and I'm going to do opposite action, I'm going to lean into love these people and that's how we strengthen these relationships and therefore then strengthen myself. Um, another person might have to say like I'm going to lean out of the rescuer role because if I keep doing this I'm going to flip to persecutor, I'm going to get resentful and exhausted and fed up, and so it sucks to not rescue, it sucks to deny help. But if I don't, then this person will cease to have my help forever.

Speaker 2: 51:54

Yeah, and recognize that stepping out of those roles. It's really scary, because I think that when you talk about family systems like the worst thing that you can imagine especially a child the worst thing you can imagine is the destruction of the family. Right, if I don't rescue, if I don't mediate between mommy and daddy, my family is going to be destroyed, right?

Speaker 2: 52:20

That's a lot for like one person to hold, so they want to, so they're going to maintain the dysfunction, just because staying together in pain is worse than like breaking up. Right, yeah, I can imagine how hard that would be to lean out of like the rescuer role. It's kind of like when we, when we have patients who are in that kind of like victim active, passive and they go, I'm totally helpless, I can't do anything, and we have the tendency to be like, oh, come on, here's this, here's this other tool, here's this other like I'm not going to over function for my patients sometimes.

Speaker 2: 52:54

And.

Speaker 1: 52:54

I'm having to learn how to not do that.

Speaker 2: 52:58

Yeah, that's totally normal. That's like that's the roles you're set up with. I'm literally rescue, I'm literally helping you. But if the person like is completely denying any sorts of agency and saying, well, you, you're the whatever you know and I can't do anything, then you're going to, it's going to pull a lot of sympathy and support from you. But when that happens, we're supposed to drop the rope, like lean out of the role a little bit like okay, I'm here if you need help. What can you do? What are, what are things that you're willing to do? All right, like stop working so hard and let them and because there's a system, right, there's some they they have to take up the mantle, but they have to take up the agency and go well, like well, in order for us to stay connected. You're leaning out, so I have to lean back in a little bit.

Speaker 1: 53:44

So it's funny I'll notice it in myself when in session I'm like happy to over-function, like yeah, let me help you, let's look, I'll come up with this, but then in supervision I'll sound very frustrated about the patient supervision. I'll sound very frustrated about the patient. Um, and yeah, I've been told like it seems like you're doing too much work here. It seems like you're frustrated or annoyed, I'm like, but I don't feel that way with the when I'm actually with them.

Speaker 2: 54:12

But yeah, because, as we're saying, like, of course, you being in a helping role and them being a victim is like normal, but what's frustrating is that it doesn't lead to growth, right, I think that's when you know there's a dysfunctional system, is when people don't have, in that system, the autonomy and freedom and agency to grow. Right, you're stuck and you're arrested in the development. So it would be different if you were working, working, working and they go. Wow, thank you so much. I I took your advice, I listened to you, like you really helped me.

Speaker 2: 54:45

They're like oh great, like, but it's frustrating when you're working, working, working, working and you're feeling it's almost like you're chasing them. Yeah, um them, yeah. I think that the tips are, as we mentioned, like break the triangle, have people talk directly, either as a group, like the three people. Talk directly and openly about the pain and not avoid uncomfortable scenarios and don't default to a role to avoid it. Right, like, if you're talking about pain, don't be like oh gosh, I'm the worst, I can't help anything. Right, kind of the collapse and shame and like falling into the victim role is a way to kind of avoid dealing with it.

Speaker 2: 55:32

So, actually just like talking about things directly, openly, try to not avoid discomfort and then, as we're saying, like to not just fall into a role, but that we might have elements of a lot of different stuff. Right, sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we're hurt, sometimes we want to help. Right, you could have all those things and you're not one thing. You're not one of those things, things and you're not one thing. You're not one of those things, um and just.

Speaker 2: 56:02

I think that the main thing is to like recognize that in your life when you see a drama triangle, like maybe you just reflect on, like, huh, yeah, actually I have two friends that I'm always in the middle of, or you know, like I'm always fighting with my boyfriend, and that this other friend always comes to step in and tell them off right, like notice when you have these triangles in your life and notice if it's not leading to any change and growth, if it's just passing around, that drama, then it's time to either just enjoy it and just enjoy the ride and know that that's something that's binding, you guys, or to just lean out of it and just be like, okay, you guys, you guys figure it out on your own, you do it.

Speaker 1: 56:45

All right.

Speaker 1: 56:46

Well, if you all want to lean into the role of rescuer, then we would love to have five star ratings on Apple podcast and Spotify and lovely little comments to make us feel better about ourselves.

Speaker 1: 57:01

But otherwise we'll see you next week. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a dually licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.