Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. We have discussed intellectually some of these topics before, but I think it can be sometimes more helpful to hear what it's like for one of us actually suffering from this stuff. So Kibbe and I are going to have a discussion that's basically about how early you know, childhood abuse can lead to really negative core beliefs and self-loathing, and this is going to be an episode where I'm really and this is going to be an episode where I'm really um, I'm really excited that kibbe's kind of willing to do this with us and brave enough to talk about this with us, because she's. You've talked a lot about your childhood before and your relationship with your mom and alluded to it, but today it seems like you want to talk about it in depth. So how are you feeling coming into this episode? Yeah, start there.

Speaker 2: 1:10

I mean nervous. It's one of these things that before we were going to record this, I was ruminating and feeling raw in my emotions and now that I'm here I'm nervous. So waffling between wanting to say how I feel but then also being nervous that, ironically, like it's going to sound whiny or too raw or too off-putting or something. So nervous.

Speaker 1: 1:37

This comes up for you whenever you talk about things in your life we did an episode on cancer. She's like, like I'm worried this is going to bum people out. Well, yeah it might've it might've. Well, I knew you want to say something about cool mind before we kick this off, so I'll I'll turn it over to you for that as well.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Yeah, thanks, um, for people listening. I mean, I you maybe know, you know this by now, but we've been through so much stuff. You and me, jacqueline and I really made cool in mind to help people like us at times where we felt scared, we felt alone, we felt like we were in a relationship that was difficult. We weren't sure if we were the toxic one or they were the toxic one, or am I causing the pain, they're causing the pain Like it just is such a lonely experience to try to navigate mental illness and emotions in relationships like this broken attachment, and we were building Cool of Mind so that people don't feel alone in it. Building Cool of Mind so that people don't feel alone in it.

Speaker 2: 2:48

And you know, I usually say all the things like we. You know, in Cool of Mind it's we're doing a community with a group where we're going to teach all the skills that we talk about how to take care of yourself, how to set boundaries without guilt, how to regulate your own emotions, how to support loved ones, and that's all the academic stuff that we learned over time. But really, what this is made for is to make people feel not alone, make people feel seen and heard in such a difficult relationship with either yourself or someone else having mental illness or emotional struggles. So if you just want to find out more, just reach out to me. I love talking to you. I've been, you know, on calls with a bunch of you and I really, really love talking to um to this community. So just go to a cool of mine, k U L A M I N Dcom, and click, get started. That's how you could book a free call and just learn more about our group coming up, as well as one-on-one coaching with me.

Speaker 1: 3:47

So yeah, I know this is a huge option for you and I think this episode will help reveal why and why this is so close to your heart. Um so, earlier today you texted me something. Do you mind if I share what that was?

Speaker 2: 4:07

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: 4:10

Okay.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Oh, my God you texted me.

Speaker 1: 4:12

I think I hate myself and that's a relief to say to finally admit to. Can you tell me what was happening for you in that moment?

Speaker 2: 4:23

I don't know what was going on this morning. I think I've been waiting for this moment after cancer, where this magic healing happens. People who go through something scary or an illness say that it strips them away of all the noise and gets to some core issues that needed healing and I was kind of waiting for that and it's made me come in contact more with this anxiety I feel all the time. I mean, you know this very well, but I'm just constantly anxious that I'm not doing enough, that I'm not doing well enough, that something's wrong in my relationships. You know, just always anxious about that. And I felt a lot of knowledge and a lot of peace and healing through becoming a therapist and working with people who also struggle with this. So I feel like I've come a long way, but there's this core part of me that just is constantly buzzing, constantly feeling not enough. And I think also through all this, these podcast episodes, we've talked about a lot of different issues that I normally wouldn't otherwise Um and realizing, like, how much we've gone through and how much um that anxiety is from a lot of the traumatic things that I've been through as a kid and when I, when I just I don't know why.

Speaker 2: 5:53

I was, like, you know, going, going home from an appointment and I was just thinking, I think I just hate myself, Like I think I, I, I, I assume that I'm bad and broken and all the good things I do and all the nice things people say to me are, you know, almost false. Like it's surface level. They know that side of me and I'm overcompensating. But you know, I'm really broken down deep inside. And once you know, once people have found out, um or have come in contact with that, that's where problems lie and it's just a matter of time before they get there, Um and it.

Speaker 2: 6:37

And, weirdly enough, like I didn't feel sad when I had the thought, oh, I hate myself, I had the like relief kind of like how some of our friends have described like coming out of the closet to themselves where they're like, oh, there's this thing that has like been woven into all the different parts of my life in the background and it's caused this like disconnection and confusion and pain. But I couldn't put my finger on it. But now I, now I get it. So once I saw like, oh, I hate myself, Then I saw how it, the tendrils, have spread out over my life and infected, like everything, the way I think, the way I act, and this anxiety that I say, that it always sits with me. So it was kind of like a relief when I realized that or thought that.

Speaker 1: 7:30

Yeah, I mean there's some relief, in a sense of certainty, I suppose, understanding what's happening. Is this something that you 100% believe, or is this something that only a part of you believes? Or is this something that only a part?

Speaker 2: 7:43

of you believes. I think if you were to ask me this morning it'd be a hundred percent. I think, now that I'm a little calmer, I have like, oh yes, it's there in me, like deep down, like in my stomach or my chest, but there's other parts of me that knows that it's not true, like it kind of feels like a more logical side of me. That's like Kimmy, come on, you're great, you have all these like good things, you know. So, yeah, I mean right now it's probably like 60, 70%, but I think I'm realizing how much it's played a role in all the times where I've gotten like weirdly upset about things and didn't know why, or gotten really angry, or really angry myself or really. You know, when the emotions like didn't fit the situation, I'm like, oh, it's the self-hatred that was driving it. So it feels like I figured out an answer to a puzzle.

Speaker 2: 8:50

Whenever I fail, or whenever I feel like I don't do well enough, I am like, oh, it's because of this broken part of me that's infected that that that will never make me as successful as I should be. Or even when I you know silly things when I look at counterparts, my peers, that are doing better than me professionally, you know, just like comparison, social comparison, I'm like, oh it's, they have what it takes to be good. And I'm trying hard to keep up that race with a, with a, with a broken leg, and this broken leg is a secret that no one knows. I have this broken leg but it's, it's there and I hate it and I'm trying to run as hard as I can with it so right now you're kind of talking about it, um, in terms of like success, ambition, failure, productivity.

Speaker 1: 9:42

It seems like I've I've witnessed there this. There's this other side to it too, when it's like, when you convince yourself that somebody doesn't truly care about you yeah is that a different part? Is it the other side of the same coin? Is it related to success?

Speaker 2: 10:04

I think, if I were to tie it back to, I mean, I think that the professional success was like my way of getting out of this, getting not broken right. Like my especially, my dad was always really like excited when I would do well in school and he was very proud of me for that. So that felt like a lifeline, Like as long as I did well, I, someone, will see me as good. And in relationships it comes out as like people pleasing or like you know, doing everything I can to make them happy. And then there's that always that fear, that like if I don't do that, they're that's the only thing that they like about me. And that feels a little bit more closer to the way I feel about my relationship with my mother, but it's probably both.

Speaker 1: 11:00

I'm wondering if the success thing is is less about oh, I'm not the kind of person who has what it takes to be successful and more about if I fail. I'm so threatened because I don't have my lifeline available to me.

Speaker 2: 11:18

Yeah, I felt it a lot when I had cancer and I couldn't work as much, or when I was postpartum. I was like, oh, I was postpartum. I was like, oh, I don't have that lifeline, like I don't have that thing that people would like. So what am I? Nothing. No one's gonna no one's gonna like me, no one's gonna want me, no one's gonna find me valuable.

Speaker 1: 11:36

So that was hard the sense of what it means to be bad, or like this diseased part of you. Do you? Can you put words to it? Does it? Is it a character of some kind that you could describe?

Speaker 2: 11:55

the angry version to me, the one that was the one that the part of me that's like aggressive and big personality, um, I think that you know, just just from, just from, like just natural consequences, like whenever I've gotten angry or whenever I've been, you know, like aggressive in some way, that's what gets the negative feedback Right. Like people don't like that, for example, like some little things, like this one thing that stood out to me, my friend um, and she fell backward and she said, like she was like Kibbe, in this like horrified way, and I remember that, like I I mean I apologize and we like we're fine, but I was horrified at myself. I was like, oh no, like I'm bad, like I can't believe I did that. I'm bad, like how can I do that? Why did I do that? Um, so, yeah, that part of me that's, yeah, I mean, I talked to my mom today, um, and I, I, uh, that was that was a hard day.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Um, I think it's it. How do I explain this in a succinct, like normal way? Um, I, it's. It kind of feels like this broken side of me, or that part it's like, I guess, a generational trauma, something that I inherited from her. Some days it feels like um, a thing that she wanted me to, that it's like this there's this part or this demon that is being passed around. No one wants it. My mom had it and she's trying to pass it to me and I don't want it and I struggle with holding it and you know, I I have it, I guess, and I'm like I don't want this, I don't want this. I don't think this is mine, but I have it and I don't know what to do with it, and I sometimes wish that she would take it back. But she never does Um, and the way that looks like is does um, and the way that looks like is, I think she probably felt rejected and shamed and like not accepted by people, and so she did the same to me, um, and I, as I've been doing a little bit more healing, I'm like wait, a, maybe I'm not bad, maybe maybe this, this isn't actually me, maybe maybe she gave this to me, maybe this like idea of myself came from her.

Speaker 2: 14:55

And then, when I say that, or when I say like don't you recognize how essentially abusive you've been, she goes well, no, I wasn't, it's your dad's fault, or like today, I just, I kind of I. I just was in such a raw place I couldn't hold back and I kind of unleashed all the things, thoughts and feelings that I've been holding in, which is that I've been, I feel scared around my mom, I feel unsafe, I feel guarded and I feel irritable around her. I really get scared when she has my son, especially if it's unsupervised, like I really like I feel viscerally, like my stomach is in knots. And today she did one of her things again, where she wanted to, you know, take him, take him over to her house, which leaves me like in a state of panic, state of panic. And I said no. And she said why don't you? Like we always get in a fight about this. She was like why don't, why don't you let me like? He asked me, and because of because of you, I have to say no to him, I have to deny him. And so I said you know I'm that I don't feel safe around you, like I think you were very mean to me sometimes and of course she denied it. And then eventually she basically said you know, this is deep in the conversation, they all saw what you were like as a kid and a grown-up. You asked me to look at myself, maybe you could look at yourself very angry child, so difficult, but I still love you.

Speaker 2: 16:25

And often she will say things like you know, is your dad who caused all this because he left. And how she says this often where she says it's your like how does it make me, how do you think it made me feel when you would go to him and be excited to see him, even though he broke my heart? Like how dare you? She really blames me a lot for wanting to be with my dad or getting excited to see him. Or like feeling like I had a good relationship with him because she was like how could you do that to me? So, yeah, that's. I think that, like when she says those things, I see it. I say like, oh, that's where that self-hatred comes from. Like I went through some of the worst things in my entire life with her and she says it's because of me, is to because I'm angry or difficult or something, so the worst things that happen to me are my fault because I am who I am.

Speaker 1: 17:33

Yeah, so you can see that now rationally that that's a Swiss cheese argument.

Speaker 2: 17:37

But I mean like emotionally, as I'm saying it out loud, like I'm reading those texts, there's a, there's a part of me that's so angry that she would say that, and then there's another part of me that's like maybe it's true, you know, like maybe what's happening for you.

Speaker 2: 17:54

I just feel it's true, or I just my mind goes back and forth of, like the therapist adult side knows it's not true, the therapist adult side knows it's not true. And then there was a kid side. That's like, maybe I did, maybe I did deserve it. Sorry, yeah, I want to take your pain away, but you already know that that's not fair to put on a kid. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know that until I started having a son myself. I mean, it's weird.

Speaker 2: 18:47

I think a lot of people experience this where once they have a kid of their own, they start to realize what they've been through. It's a really disorienting experience to have a kid and you see this little child and you're like, oh my God, how could someone do something to that, that little little thing, you know like the thing that you wanted to protect so badly. Um, and I see, sometimes with my son, where he like has a big personality right, like he's a, he has like big feelings and he's like loud and whatever, and I get really scared of people, of like people's reaction to that Cause. I'm like, oh my God, what if? What if, like they think he's a bad boy, what if they see this and they think he's bad too and he'll go through like the way I feel. So I see it now more as a mom. Yeah, no, no, I, uh I might go the opposite way, where I'm even, like, sometimes too gentle and too like. I kind of like too giving in. I mean, this is the thing that happens when people don't want to like. I see it intellectually and emotionally. Like when people don't want to like, I see it intellectually and emotionally like when people don't want to own the parts of them they don't want to that they don't like like the quote, broken or bad parts.

Speaker 2: 20:20

Like my mom acts in ways that is really hurtful to a lot of people. I mean to the point where my whole family and like people around me and people I grew up with all know what she's like and every time I say I say this to her, like I present the evidence to her I'm like don't you remember when you did this? Don't you remember when this? And she'll, she'll, she'll, act like it didn't happen or if, if she, if she does admit it, it's because it was someone else's fault. Like to this day, when we fight, or when she's, you know, harsh to me or mean to me, or something like that she'll say something about well, I was hurt because of the divorce, or she'll blame it on my dad. I'm like you have long been divorced from my dad and also he's dead, but she doesn't want to own that part, so she gives it to me, I think.

Speaker 1: 21:20

It's for you to go to this place where you feel bad and you think about the times you've been angry or aggressive or what have you. The place she would have to go is hell.

Speaker 2: 21:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:34

And that's not me trying to have over-compassion for her, but it makes sense. It makes more sense that she would refuse to go to that place and instead hand you a portion of it to hold.

Speaker 2: 21:53

Yeah. And it's just so lonely because, like I have to hold it all you know yeah, well, but you're right, like she can't tolerate it.

Speaker 2: 22:02

She just can't. I, weirdly enough, I don't know if this is a subconscious calling, but lately I've been watching you, the Netflix show. By the way, everyone skip this next few seconds because I might give spoilers. I'll try not to. But after today I was like I'm just going to watch TV, I need to. Just I'm kind of like I, oh God, I.

Speaker 2: 22:28

The worst part of the day was that I had this argument with her and then I was like, please, like argument with her. And then I was like, please, like, please, leave us alone, like I was begging her, please like, set me, like, leave me alone. Please, like, give me some space. I'm gonna stop texting. And then we did, and then I heard her calling him through the nanny's phone and I, I literally went into a fight or flight mode. I literally like ran out to living room and I was like get all, and I started sobbing and I started shaking, um, and I couldn't stop Like. I just like was hype, I, you know, felt like I was an animal. I just couldn't sort of kind of numb out.

Speaker 2: 23:03

I watched you and we're just like a fun murder, murder show, um, but there's a season, not the latest season?

Speaker 2: 23:12

I haven't seen that yet, so no spoilers on that.

Speaker 2: 23:13

But there's a season not the latest season, I haven't seen that yet, so no spoilers on that but there's a season where eventually, this guy has been doing horrible things, like killing people and and he keeps having the story of himself as the victim of trauma and like a good guy who wants to protect the weak, to protect women, and you could see his like the voiceover is his inner dialogue and he's and Joe the character is always saying like I would never do, I would never hurt anyone.

Speaker 2: 23:44

I, whenever he would do something, he'd kill someone or hurt them. He'd be like I, this is not me, this is not who I am, I didn't do this, I'm not that person. And he will have like some justification for why he did it until he seems to have a breaking point where he dissociates and really like DID dissociative identity disorder where he splits the part of him that kills people and hurts people and he is not conscious of it anymore. So it functions as another person. So it's like there's people can go through such extremes when they cannot tolerate a part of themselves um yeah, and like I'm not saying that I'm better, I, I don't tolerate it a lot.

Speaker 1: 24:29

You know, like I, I hide from the fact that I feel like this about myself a lot getting in contact with it sometimes is probably important so that you can process it, and you do have to function. So I'd say that's better than dissociating a part of you that murders people.

Speaker 2: 24:57

Yeah, there are levels. There's like, literally, you know the dissociating, that part of you that you don't want to own. You don't want it. Um, there's the projecting, which is part of dissociation, where you see it in other people. Like that's actually a lot of what transference focus therapy is all about. Is that the theory is personality disorders are made because you can't integrate the different parts of you. You deny one or two or whatever, and then you throw it onto other people. I'm the victim, you're the aggressor, and that other person might actually feel like they're being hurt. Right? So, like you have it, you have the bad part of me I don't want. Or there's just like suppression and denial, or what I do, which is like suppressing and overcompensating. Right, like, oh no, no, I'm trying to do good things, I, I, I guess I'm not sure, but it doesn't feel real like it feels like you know, the bad stuff is actually more truthful. Um, yeah, so there's different ways that you could deny and like wrestle with those disowned parts of you.

Speaker 1: 26:22

So as a kid, you were terrorized by your mother and made to believe that it's because you were quote bad and difficult and angry, was it?

Speaker 2: 26:32

it was that vague, just these vague words about you being. I think back then it was I mean with her, with her. When she says it, it might be different things. It was, oh, now it's like. Now I'm remembering it's um the same thing that she had an issue with her mom and my dad we don't care, we're cold, we just work a lot. We don't give her what she wants, we don't give the attention and love that she wants, um, that I'm fat, like she used to. She used to actually say if you keep eating like this, no one's gonna love you. Um, yeah, and and then me? Me being defiant against her was always the thing that she would point to as, like you're bad, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:21

Anytime you thought of a mirror to her, she attacked.

Speaker 2: 27:22

It sounds like.

Speaker 1: 27:26

Yeah, and then you get rewarded for some of those same traits by your father.

Speaker 2: 27:31

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:31

That's confusing.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, confusing. Yeah, yeah, it was like I'm like my dad, so that she hates me for it, and I'm like my dad and my dad liked me for it. So I mean, now that I'm an adult, I don't really think I'm exactly like him, actually very different. I'm actually have a lot of qualities like her, but yeah, it's just this. Oh, like, I feel it like. It's just like this. It's like I'm poisoned and I'm like doing what I can to hide the fact that I'm poisoned or trying to let it not infect every everything around me. Um, what?

Speaker 1: 28:13

would happen if you broke open the poison bottle? Like what If I said hey, give me the poison, be poisonous right now? What do you think would come out?

Speaker 2: 28:27

I think I would just be myself and people would just leave me. I don't think I would do anything different, like it's not, like I have a part of me that I'm, that it doesn't look like I would do anything different. Maybe sometimes when I'm like angry, like how I, you know, like I know we've talked about this a lot where I'll suppress my anger and people please, and then burst, so it's, that is the burst moment, and then people are like, whoa, you know, like that's out of nowhere, kibbe, you're so angry and like I'm like, oh yeah, well, here I am, you know, so it um, and then there's a sad feeling of like I know my mom feels sometimes where it's like why can't people see that part of me and still love me? You know, like it's a matter of time before that comes out, and then people will hate it and see it as bad.

Speaker 1: 29:21

What's interesting to me is that that part of you is a behavior that seems like it comes out because you suddenly get frightened and it activates this core belief stuff. So it almost seems like a byproduct of believing that there's something wrong with you, rather than it being evidence or rather than it being the bad part of you.

Speaker 2: 29:55

Yeah, yeah, I think I can't tell what that's because I'm trying to control it or make it happen and describe it, but we've seen it. I see it clinically a lot right, where people who are afraid of rejection tend to do things to get them rejected, like they either hide or from other people, or they actually like literally push people away and they go. Well, there it is. I told you, people are going to leave me. So like there's something about how we try to confirm these parts of us or those beliefs that were broken. So, yeah, like I don't know if there's anything like underneath the part, like I don't think that there's a part that's like, oh, if I really let it out, I'll just be evil and I would like yell at people and you know, like I think it's just like exist and then if people actually see like me, then they will leave or they'll. Yeah, I'm not sure. I think it's a matter of time.

Speaker 2: 31:19

I think I've had to deal with this a lot with my relationship with Alex, my husband, who I think we're starting to realize how much attachment, insecurity I have. Whenever, whenever Alex is depressed or struggling or just unhappy, I have this panic and I'm this fear of like, oh no, like I got to fix it, I got to make it better, um, otherwise he's going to leave Um, and there's a lot of work I'm having to do around just allowing him to have feelings and not let it just trigger my attachment, insecurity, my belief that I'm broken and he's just going to leave. I mean, it was activated a lot during one of our first fights, where I have talked about this before. So I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive, but he misread a tone of a text that I had. I said we're talking about when we're going to get engaged or something like that.

Speaker 2: 32:23

And I misunderstood and I thought it was earlier than we are. And I said, well, and I was kind of ruminating, I was like well, maybe it's a good thing that we're waiting and not getting married right away or engaged right away. And he heard it as me being like well, fine, maybe it's good that we're not getting engaged. But I just I really wasn't trying to be mean in that moment and then he got really mad at me and said you know, I don't know if this is going to work out. You're too mean. You're too mean, I don't think I could do this. I don't know. And he was really cold and I sobbed for hours after that because it just it was like my worst nightmare came true I mean.

Speaker 1: 33:02

All of these cons, all these psychological concepts are like marching through my brain, um, with a sense of, of hopelessness, like you know how, how one instance of of being misinterpreted led to you categorizing your entire self as mean, instead of seeing it as like. Oh you know, occasionally I mean like occasionally a lot of people are mean, um, but it just becomes the totality of who you are. And it makes sense when you know you grew up the way you did.

Speaker 2: 33:42

Someone saying you're mean, therefore you deserve punishment well, I mean, you know, like alex and I have been friends for at that point, 18 years, and so us getting together. I was like, oh wow, something that makes me feel really safe around him was that he's known me and all you know so many different forms of me that he accepts me and loves me, even though he knows all the parts of me. And then when he said that I was crushed, I was like I was right. When he said that I was crushed, I was like I was right, I'm bad, and when people really find it out, they'll leave.

Speaker 1: 34:18

Yeah that's a pretty crushing thing to say, in fairness.

Speaker 2: 34:24

As soon as we got on the phone and I read out my text to him with the tone that I meant, he was like oh no, I'm so sorry. So this was all cleared up Like lesson learned. You know, talk about emotional stuff, not on text. You know, actually get the tone of voice.

Speaker 1: 34:45

But yeah, it's this protective action stuff that so often is the culprit and there's this belief in this mysterious part of the self that is poisoned and defective and broken and it can be so frustrating for the loved one to be like what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what this part is. I wish I could give this part a hug and tell it it's okay, because it's just not how we see you. Like I've seen this firefighter part of you before that gets contemptuous and angry and you know that's hurt my feelings and I told you that. But like it doesn't. It doesn't seem like that's the true, you Doesn't. You know what I mean? How?

Speaker 1: 35:33

so the true you doesn't you know what I mean? How? So like well, I mean just like the times when I dissolve into panic and insecurity and weakness because I'm, because zach asks me to check the internal consistency of my measures. That doesn't mean that which happened an hour ago, we're all triggered today.

Speaker 2: 35:57

That's like the worst thing I could think of to ask you why don't you do a bunch of stats that don't make any sense right now, under high pressure, high stakes?

Speaker 1: 36:10

Yeah, you have five days to determine the rest of your life. That doesn't mean that I am inherently a weak, panicking, insecure mess of an ineffectual person. There's this concept that I know you know, called internal family systems. You know there are all these different parts and they all have different roles. They're trying to kind of keep the system that is the person um surviving and that part of you that gets really angry. It sounds to me like what IFS would call the firefighter, which is when all else doesn't like, when nothing else seems to be working, the firefighter comes in and does whatever it can to protect you from feeling a certain way. And it sounds like the way that you're feeling that's trying to protect you from is this sense of being unlovable and abandoned. Abandonable Do you? I mean what do you think that's trying to protect you?

Speaker 2: 37:28

from. I. I remember that one time I had a therapist and like a trauma therapist, and when I was going through grad school in North Carolina and I was talking about this, about like how I'm more of an externalizer and I'm more angry and I feel really ashamed about that, and she said, well, thank goodness that you are. And I was like what, what do you? What do you mean? Um, because usually all my you know like work has been about like how to manage the anger and didn't, you know, stuff it down. But she was like, oh good, I was like that's weird response. And she she said, well, I mean the stuff that you went through.

Speaker 2: 38:14

People who are angry as a response to that trauma tend to move forward and they tend to, um, you know, get, get out of there, get out of that situation. You know, work like fight for things. And she was like if you went the other way and weren't angry, that anger would turn inward and you would have other kinds of problems like depression, self-hatred and sometimes like self-harm. You know, she was like it's sometimes also really hard when people respond to trauma by turning it inward and not outward, and so I was. It was the first time someone had said that and I I couldn't believe it, like I really it was nice to hear. At first I didn't believe it, but over time I can see what she means by that, so I could see the protective nature of it.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Yeah, I mean, it almost seems like you do typically turn it inward, but then there comes a point where you can no longer hold that. It can no longer be pointed inwardly and it gets pointed outwardly.

Speaker 2: 39:24

Yeah, there's always this yearning that people would also recognize that I'm not the only bad one. I think that even in arguments I mean we've talked about this where I'm like I'm not the only, like I'm the angry, I'm called the angry one but like other other people have done things to hurt me, or like I don't think I'm the only one at fault, and it's still all like that healing fantasy that my mom would eventually be like okay, yeah, you might be a difficult child or angry or whatever, but I couldn't handle it and I did things that really hurt you and I'm really sorry. I'm trying to work on it, but it's something that would own that part of her. But it just like the amount of denial that she has around it is stunning, like the things that she does to her people. I mean, I didn't even bring this up, but this is trigger warning for the story.

Speaker 2: 40:26

But I there's one of my, one of my core memories was during a fight when I have my mom and they would get really violent and I woke up in on the terrace with covered in blood and I didn't know how I got there. I didn't know what happened and I like my face hurt, but I didn't, I didn't understand, like I was really disoriented. I was at first I remember looking at my hand and being like whose is this? And then I walked inside and I was really spaced out. I walked inside, I went and saw my mom in the kitchen and she was sitting at her table and she was facing away and she was sitting upright, really really like this.

Speaker 2: 41:10

And I remember being like mommy, I don't, I don't know what happened, like this. And I remember being like mommy, I don't, I don't know what happened. And she turned and looked at me. She was like, well, you always have nosebleeds and I never told you the story. Oh yeah. And I like went and cleaned myself up and I remember being in a fog and to this day I don't know what happened. Um, my mom brought up today Without me bringing it up. She was like, well, you know you, you know your dad did this and you just you came in one day into the kitchen and you always have nosebleeds. And like the fact that she couldn't, that's what makes me feel crazy.

Speaker 2: 41:55

You know, like the amount of denial, what denial can do that she couldn't even tell me what happened yeah then it's not real, like I, I, I have the effects of the pain and the memory and the horror and the fear and then, but then, like, no one can tell me what happened, so I just have to, kind of like, hold it right. I mean, this is not an example of me being broken, but it's an example of how, if, if someone who hurts you doesn't own up to it, you like get all the blowback of it and you have to hold it and it doesn't even feel real. Sometimes you're just like what happened? Did I do that? Like, did I make it up? You know, sometimes I like it's like what happened, maybe I made it up, maybe I just fell, you know, like, but that's a weird thing to.

Speaker 2: 42:51

I don't know it just like. Even if I think about it, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1: 42:56

But you know what happened.

Speaker 2: 42:58

I don't like, like I, I think I like I remember parts that, like we, it was like how we normally do it and I remember she's always used the thrash Right and I so I always remember like a flurry of just like body that probably was like hitting back or something, and then I woke up on the floor, you know, like I don't know how, I don't know how I got there, I don't know when we went out there, I don't know but you know it was a result of violence maybe I fell when she told you that.

Speaker 2: 43:31

I have, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 43:34

I mean it's just, I guess I only bring that up because it still seems like there's an attempt to find the most benign cause instead of having I don't know, I mean instead of having, I don't know, I mean instead of having to hold that probably she beat you up and maybe you fell as a result of that or slammed against something as a result of that, but that is not your fault.

Speaker 2: 44:10

I was like nine. I think that's the craziest thing, that I get really weird when I see kids when they're six or seven. I just get kind of. You know cause I when, when, whenever you picture the bad things that happened to you as a kid, you picture yourself as like an adult, like are older, you know. You just like, oh, like I remember that and here's how I process that. But then when I see a six year old or seven year old when I all this stuff happened, it was I'm like I mean, they're children, they're literally children. I just I just can't believe how young they are and how fragile they are. It's really freaky they are.

Speaker 1: 44:59

It's really freaky, so messed up. Um, yeah, I mean, it's just you know she. She does something horrible to you, veils the truth won't own up to the truth, gives you a a gas lighted explanation that it had something to do with you and your pesky nosebleeds, which don't cause pain or dissociation, and then you just have to go on the next day knowing that she's who you come home to yeah, it really does feel like there's this demon that lives, like the generational trauma demon, that the the buck that's passed around that no one wants to hold.

Speaker 2: 45:57

This demon hit me, you know, like maybe bleed or something, and then none of us can remember, like none of us can see the demon.

Speaker 1: 46:09

Well, maybe we try to see. If we think about just the self-hatred piece, the part of you that blred piece, the part of you that blames yourself, the part of you that sees yourself as damaged and broken, what does, what does that look like? I mean, can you give it an image Like is that the demon or is that something else?

Speaker 2: 46:26

Yeah, I can only just picture myself as a kid screaming, and the weird part is it kind of looks like my mom screaming, because we looked a little alike At some point in my life when I was younger. I looked a lot like her or acted like her, and I have my bangs and straight black hair and just stomping around screaming yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:04

Stomping around screaming um.

Speaker 2: 47:05

Yeah, stomping around screaming and that's the self-hatred part. No, that's part that causes all the problems that I hate, that, that that people hate.

Speaker 1: 47:12

People would hate if they saw it, you know that's the part of you that gets really angry and aggressive. Yeah, okay, this is the part that actually does those things, or is this the part that lives inside you and we don't actually know what it does or what's so bad about it?

Speaker 2: 47:30

I don't know. I never thought about it like a separated thing, because I know I think it's. I think it's like the. This is one in the same, like the aggressive part, because this aggressive part is not just thing, the type that gets angry when I feel hurt or like I feel like someone hates me. Right, it's not just a reaction, it's also like the part of me that works hard or that is ambitious or that liked it likes to like to play sports.

Speaker 2: 48:02

You know, that part like that's more like I'm saying masculine because that's like but the one that you know goes into war, that like drives me to do stuff um the one that the the part of me that pushed my friend that day on in the playground like so this is the part of you that some other part of you hates, or this is the part of you that this is the part of me that has people like maybe that my mom hated that she would um react badly to that other people didn't Like my friend goes Kibby, you know, and I put like the part that people are shocked and horrified when they see it.

Speaker 1: 48:48

What's your immediate kind of reaction to it If you see it, that little kid, mom Kibby, hybrid stomping around?

Speaker 2: 49:01

I mean the. The thing that just popped in my mind just now is seeing when jackson, my son also, is like that, you know, when he he's just like I want that, you know, like you know, um, and I'm like, oh my god, he has it. He's infected too. He has that side, and it's just like I have such a reaction to it. And alex is like it's fine, he's just like I don has that side and it's just like I have such a reaction to it. And Alex is like it's fine, and he's just like I don't know, he just wants a chocolate, I don't know, like it's not a big deal, but I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And don't have everyone hate him. They hate him, they call him a bad child. He's gonna get in trouble. He's gonna get in trouble for it. It's weird. I, I I talked to one of my childhood friends about this and I was like do you remember what I was like back then?

Speaker 2: 49:49

Do you remember, was I bad? Was I like difficult? And she was like no, she was like no, she was like actually, this is the friend I pushed in the playground, like my friend Marin. Um, she was like no, you weren't bad. It's just like. You know your mom couldn't handle you. She was like you were always too much too masculine, too defiant, too obsessed with work, um, and she didn't like that. And whenever I would not do something that she wanted, she wouldn't like that. And she was like I just remember you always tried to be good, always tried to do the right thing, work hard, but it never was enough. And that was so mind blowing For me to hear her say that, partially because she was the friend, friend that was like, oh my god, you know.

Speaker 1: 50:39

But also is because like that is so different from now, how like from how I saw myself sounds like looking at that little infected thing like what it wants, like, if you imagine, talking to it for a minute.

Speaker 2: 51:06

Hmm, I want my mom to acknowledge and say that she's. And she'd say yeah, just say, like I did, that I did those things and I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 51:23

You don't even have to say sorry, but just like. Yeah me, the problem was me, I did, I did things. Um, so she wants to be unburdened, stripped of the responsibility of being bad and infected. Yeah, I, I want.

Speaker 2: 51:31

Yeah, just like some, yeah, I, I want. Yeah. Just like. Some like accountability, but at least just like, yeah, it isn't just you like, you're not just crazy. Um, I want, I want to. Um, it's weird, huh, huh, to be as To be herself and not be hated.

Speaker 1: 52:18

Which to be herself and not be hated. So then, the one of you that's doing the hating, yeah. Can you get in contact with that part?

Speaker 2: 52:27

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 52:28

Does it look like anything?

Speaker 2: 52:32

I think it's just me, the one that I identify with.

Speaker 1: 52:37

I guess it's like the adult like reasonable part, that's like the adult reasonable part hates the little something yeah, yeah but you told me that your reasonable side sees it differently, but that there's this emotional self-hatred that comes in. Huh interesting, I don't know well, when you feel the self-hatred, do you feel it anywhere physically?

Speaker 2: 53:10

I just feel now more the relief that that I'm admitting to it, so I can't really find the, the self-hatred kind of winds around everything like. It winds around, like, like this, like a, like a stupid thing. Like if I post a reel on the instagram and it doesn't do well, I'm like, ah, it's, it's because everyone like that. That part of me came out through the real like I'm trying to, I'm trying to like, uh, give some space to talk through the, the bitterness and the anger, and then people see it and they don't like it, right, like.

Speaker 1: 53:43

So it's just tentacle or something that's yeah, like it's.

Speaker 2: 53:48

It's a disease and people like feel the disease and so they don't like it um yeah, so I think it's part of like the world hates it, like I'm convinced that the world would hate it and then I'm trying to stuff it down or trying to prevent people from hating it so the part of you that is hating on that little, little marching child, little stomping child, is doing, but it's doing a certain job, which is protecting it from being seen by the world.

Speaker 2: 54:22

Yeah, there's now this image that popped in my mind. That is like the two sides of me. That's like my mom and my dad. They hate each other and they hate each other and the my dad is like the masculine, you know, obsessive, compulsive work, hard working, and the mom is like the erratic, explosive, like angry, childish side, and those two sides hate each other um what's?

Speaker 1: 54:55

what part do they play in the story?

Speaker 2: 54:59

I think those are the two parts of me that are hate, like battling okay inside, I think. Not sure, I don't know. I don't know if I'm making sense.

Speaker 1: 55:12

This is all just like it's that you've described a story in which there's this mother who is very, very punishing of you anytime you take on the father role, but then the father role is the only place where you can find safety.

Speaker 2: 55:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 55:31

You're in a bind constantly.

Speaker 2: 55:34

She's. When she would get really drunk and angry, she would scream at me like you're just like your father, you just you're just, you're an asshole just like your father. She would say that a lot, um, and I remember there was a part of me that felt like good, like kind of felt this vindictive, like not vindictive, but just like good. I'm glad I'm like my dad, you know, like a relief, but like bitter, like condescending relief, like I prefer to be that side than the other side yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 1: 56:07

It strikes me that there's this part of you like, if we think about ifs, so you've got this battle of good and evil inside of you, but that gets really mucked up because either side that you land on is considered evil by the other. And then you've got this image of this stomping child that is aggressive. And then you've got this coil wrapped around everything that you're visualizing that its job is to keep the stomping child at bay, keep it so that nobody can ever see that and it seems to operate by by keeping this self-hatred alive so that this never, this part is never seen.

Speaker 1: 56:52

Does that feel accurate?

Speaker 2: 56:54

yeah, the self-hatred is a little bit more of like trying to suppress it. Trying to suppress it and trying to get other people to own it too, so it's not just me.

Speaker 1: 57:02

Yeah, because, because what would happen if it didn't suppress it?

Speaker 2: 57:09

Then it would be all of me It'd be. I am that thing and everyone's going to hate me.

Speaker 1: 57:15

And then you'd be I think I'm.

Speaker 2: 57:16

I think the fear is that people are going to see me like they see my mother.

Speaker 1: 57:20

Okay.

Speaker 2: 57:22

I think that's what I'm so afraid of is just like I don't want to be like my mother. I don't want to be like her.

Speaker 1: 57:29

Yeah. So that ribbon, that coil, is playing a super important part by protecting you from being seen the way that your terrorist has seen.

Speaker 2: 57:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:40

And then you'd be left and alone and unlovable.

Speaker 2: 57:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:46

That self-hatred's doing a really important thing.

Speaker 2: 57:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:55

What do you feel when you think of it that way?

Speaker 2: 58:02

um, I wish I, I wish I could make sense of everything. I think that I don't understand when I feel so much of this battle inside and then other people say like oh, I wish you can see yourself like we see you, and I'm like I don't understand what that means. Like why am I? Why is this such a disconnect? Why is it that everyone else sees me as good and I don't feel that way and I feel like I'm like living a lie. I wish it made more sense.

Speaker 1: 58:37

Yes, the way I'm thinking of it is if you believe that this little stomping child, if it took over, would resemble your mom and make people flee, then it's pretty important not to let that part out and to keep it suppressed. And the only way that you've got right now to do that is to hate it and do everything you can to tell it to never. It can never see the light of day, and if you tell something it can never see the light of day that kind of resembles hatred yeah, so what do I do?

Speaker 1: 59:13

well, I mean, I guess I wonder if, when you think of this rib of the self-hatred, part is trying to protect you and trying to keep you loved and supported and not alone, if you have any compassion for that.

Speaker 2: 59:36

Yeah, but I also want compassion for the angry part.

Speaker 1: 59:40

The stompy part, I guess.

Speaker 2: 59:43

I always don't want to have it. I want to give it back to her, but she won't take it, so it's me.

Speaker 1: 59:50

Maybe it's not hers. I mean, maybe it's just a set of beliefs you have about what this angry, stompy thing can do, because it's never let out. I mean, if you never let, if I were to, I'm watching lost right now.

Speaker 1: 1:00:11

You know how they always have to push the button to make sure the world doesn't explode yeah if I were to take you down there and said hey, the world's going to explode unless you push this button. You're going to believe that, unless you, that this button is the only thing that prevents the world exploding, and that something about not pushing that button, some monster is going to come out and and destroy everything, but we don't actually know, because we keep pushing the button. What if, when we stop pushing the button, the monster comes out and nothing happens?

Speaker 2: 1:00:43

The world doesn't explode.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

All you know is that you're pushing this button over and over and over again Because we've never seen the little kid come out.

Speaker 2: 1:00:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

So I stop pushing the button, maybe See if there's anything that's actually really scary about that part of you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

I don't even know what that would look like.

Speaker 1: 1:01:15

I imagine it's because it's a baseless fear. I mean, it's a fear that was developed for a good reason, because you were told. It's like you know, John and Jack were told that the world would explode if they didn't push the button, but if they don't push the button, there's nothing actually scary on the other end not true?

Speaker 2: 1:01:42

oh well, I won't give it away if you haven't gotten to this point of loss where they don't push the button and terrible things happened yeah yeah, I thought I remembered it, as nothing terrible happened, but uh, tell me you know what the writers have lost really, I mean good show, but they didn't.

Speaker 2: 1:02:01

They kind of winged it a lot of it. So, uh, yeah, I guess I wouldn't know what else would happen, what it would look like when I stop pushing the button. Uh, I button, I, probably, I probably. I mean the only thing, the clearest thing in my mind is like I wouldn't spend so much time obsessing over, like trying to find out why other people have more success than I do, yeah, and like be like, oh, they have more than they have, more of this quality, and it's because of me, you know, trying to compare myself all the time I think right, because that's a protector part.

Speaker 1: 1:02:50

What, what ifs would say is this coil part of you is trying to. It's pushing the button constantly, right, it's trying to keep this, what we call an exile, exiled. These are intolerable feelings, or the big fear, right? The terrible thing that'll come out, just just thanking your protective parts for trying so hard and letting them.

Speaker 1: 1:03:13

Letting them drop the rope a little bit and giving them the assurance that you can take over. Now that you can regulate your emotions, you can make people love you, you are loved, that you can recognize, you can do that kind of work. That's much more adult and mature, instead of the self-hatred that is the protector part you have, because that's what you were taught.

Speaker 2: 1:03:35

What if I become like my mother? That's the fear.

Speaker 1: 1:03:39

Well, how would that happen? Just walk me through that logically. How would you go from being somebody who is extremely aware of how her behavior affects others and is takes a lot of ownership over that and has her own little kid who she loves and can't imagine terrorizing? How would you go from that to somebody who is abusive and mean and can't take responsibility and lives in denial just because you stop hating yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:04:19

well, I'm worried about that, that the protective part is what separates me from her that is what differentiates and, for example, like for her to be like I mean one thing is like selfish or like you know, thinking about herself and demanding things that she wants from other people and getting mad when they when they don't do it. Right, like like you say that I'm so nervous about, like even like telling you how I am and talking about my emotions or what I like, then I go the opposite way, where I'm walking in and I'm like I become selfish, right, like, become like self-involved and narcissistic.

Speaker 1: 1:05:02

Even though that's never how narcissism has ever developed. Maybe that would happen with you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:10

It's like the superego and then let the id out. You know what I mean. That's what I I'm afraid of. You just become a child and like, hangs out and, yeah, thrashes around emotionally and physically right, right.

Speaker 1: 1:05:23

Well, what I imagine would happen is, if you let your it out a little bit and you started asking for things that you wanted, you'd probably get a lot of positive feedback, and maybe you'd get a little bit of negative feedback too, and then you could respond to that I just had like a like, a like feeling of nausea when you said that the negative, that's crazy.

Speaker 2: 1:05:47

I mean, like when we get into these like opening up raw episodes, I feel like I'm like reacting all sorts of ways.

Speaker 1: 1:05:59

It's a scary risk. It's asking you to jump off of a really huge platform and do things that might get you rejected. But this is the thing right. You can either have the self-hatred that comes in and rejects you every day, or you can test some things out, take some risks, maybe get a little bit rejected and then respond to it yourself with your actual self right that says okay, maybe, maybe I don't go that far, maybe that's the boundary. I found it. You try another one. I have a really hard time believing that you are going to metamorphose into a totally different person with a severe personality disorder, just because you decide.

Speaker 2: 1:06:47

I mean, you know how like my obsession is always fearing that I actually have a personality disorder. Yeah, one time Caitlin, our friend, was like your personality disorder? Is that you think you have a personality disorder?

Speaker 1: 1:07:01

Well, because what is a personality disorder? Is it the stomping child or is it the protective actions?

Speaker 1: 1:07:06

The protective parts that rule, that come in and won't allow the inner self to breathe at all. They say you know you're bad, you're bad. I got to do everything I can. I've got to deny reality. I've got to be mean to people. I've got to tell them it's their fault. I've got to victimize myself. I've got to do absolutely anything I can to never let myself out, because the last time myself was out I was a little kid and I was tortured by the people who were supposed to care for me, and that can't ever happen again.

Speaker 2: 1:07:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:36

And that's a terrible, terrible thing. Yeah, and it's also over. Is it Well, if you block your mother, it is Ugh.

Speaker 2: 1:07:53

That makes sense. Now I'm it's making. A minute ago I was kind of like why don't I do you know like? But now I I'm it's making. A minute ago I was kind of like what did I do you know like? But now I it's all it kind of the parentified version of me Trying to squash down the real or like more unregulated I don't want to say regulated, uncontrolled part of me, emotional.

Speaker 1: 1:08:19

If this were a therapy session, I'd be trying to lead you here instead of telling things. But I have a feeling that that little part of you that really wants to be acknowledged by your mother could use some acknowledgement from you and some forgiveness and love and compassion and warmth from you. And love and compassion and warmth from you. Maybe Maybe Probably would have worked better if I'd led you there myself. Maybe, one day Maybe.

Speaker 2: 1:08:56

Well, for now, we'll keep on hating it. It's not that I keep when I keep hating it. It just feels like how it? It feels like a band-aid, unless she actually does it, or at least like someone else recognizes it. I think maybe that's why in therapy, maybe that's why therapy exists, but that when we go through these exercises of like coming in contact with these unhealed parts, that sometimes the therapist steps in and like leads and says, like I see that and I feel compassion, and then and then leads the person to do it themselves. Like there, there does feel like something. If it doesn't feel enough, I have to keep like patting myself. It's like okay, you're okay, kibbe, you're, you're good. Um, because it is the fear that other people will hate it anyway, like I might be. Like no, no, it's okay that I feel this way, but then, like someone else is going to be like you're too mean, I'm going to break up with you right.

Speaker 1: 1:09:56

So you're probably not going to get that from your mom, because in order for her to mean it, she'd have to go to a place that's much scarier than this place yeah, you're right so how can you get it from other people? How, like even logically, what, what, how could this happen?

Speaker 2: 1:10:13

I mean this is helping it doesn't click. Yet it doesn't feel like oh, I actually feel good about myself. The self-hatred's gone. But I think the more you and the people I love say the counter evidence of actually you're good, I lock that away in my mind and have that as actually you're good. You know like I locked that away in my mind and have that as like okay, but I I think I'm not entirely bad.

Speaker 1: 1:10:47

You know.

Speaker 2: 1:10:47

so it's a little, it just sits there, but I think seeing them and like admitting that all these parts that are at play is like unpleasant but helpful what if you took that little kid by the hand and walked it around the block, metaphorically meaning?

Speaker 1: 1:11:08

you took her into the living room and sat with your husband and said this is the part of me that I'm most afraid of you seeing, and I'm going to sit here with you and with it for five minutes.

Speaker 2: 1:11:27

Okay, in a way, I feel like it is like that when I'm with my son. Like because I'm able to be like compassionate, you know, like when he has emotions I can do that for him. But I guess, yeah, parent myself, I guess in the same way.

Speaker 1: 1:11:51

See it's exposure. Don't push the button for five minutes. See what happens.

Speaker 2: 1:11:59

Next episode you're going to have a really different story. You're like maybe you shouldn't keep pushing that button, like how much you get locked down here and like maybe get Mr Echo Just like you know, just keep doing. Desmond ran away but you know we could find him, get him back.

Speaker 1: 1:12:16

I told you I'm naming my kid Desmond, right, and I wouldn't. I basically just handed Jason this edict that that's our child's name and he thought it was like some deep personal meeting, but actually it was just from Lost.

Speaker 2: 1:12:29

That's so funny. I mean Desmond's the greatest character.

Speaker 1: 1:12:32

So good on you yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:12:34

He nailed like the whole time. He was like excellent, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:12:39

Great hair, great accent, great hair.

Speaker 2: 1:12:41

Great shirt Constantly On an island with no washing machines, just.

Speaker 1: 1:12:47

Waking up every two hours to push a button.

Speaker 2: 1:12:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:12:50

It's like having an infant for three straight years.

Speaker 2: 1:12:54

Oh God, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 1:12:59

I know straight years, oh god oh my god, I know well.

Speaker 2: 1:13:02

Thank you for the therapy session you're welcome.

Speaker 1: 1:13:05

I got to practice a concept which was thrilling, um, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:13:11

Well guys, I've got a little project for all of you. Okay, kibbe, can you get your little stomping child to come out just for a few seconds? Fine, is she here? Fine, yeah, she's here. Yeah, it's me. Hey guys, if you like Kibbe's little stomping child and want it to feel loved and healed, please give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave a little comment and Kibbe will be healed. Deal. So sorry, everyone. So sorry. That legitimately helped, though. That's the funny thing, because that whole part of you that's like I'm not doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:13:59

That's true, I'm not worthy. That's true.

Speaker 2: 1:14:03

That's true, accurate.

Speaker 1: 1:14:05

Okay. Well, it's time to get my little tiny child out and work on my dissertation, so wish me luck as I descend into the pits of hell.

Speaker 2: 1:14:16

We'll all go there together, we'll all sit in hell and, you know, get a tan.

Speaker 1: 1:14:23

All right, I love you little tiny child.

Speaker 2: 1:14:26

Thanks, love you too.

Speaker 1: 1:14:29

By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment. Thank you, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.