Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, little helpers. Today we are going to talk about something that comes from a couples therapy intervention, called emotion-focused therapy. It's something I've been doing all year. Kibbe just did a workshop on it, so we're jazzed up to talk about this. Couples therapy is something I love to do and obviously, as you all know, we love talking about romance on this show. So today we're going to talk about a couple dynamic that can cause problems, and that is the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic. So we're going to get into that today. But first I'm going to kick it off to Kim to talk about Cool of Mind, and then I think we're going to do some life updates.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Thanks. So Cool of Mind is our platform that we're really making for you all, you little helpers, to help you learn the skills to support a loved one with emotion dysregulation. So I've noticed that a lot of people who've been reaching out are people who have, like a husband or a wife who might have some anger issues and tend to explode with emotion and the person doesn't know what to do. They want to also, they want to be able to set boundaries so it doesn't get dangerous, but they also want to help their loved one too. So that is the that is like what people have been reaching out for help with. So I wanted to talk about something exciting that in July, in mid-July, we're going to start a group course on this. So, yeah, so if you're interested and just want to learn more about working one-on-one with me or to join the group, you can reach out to Kulamindcom or the link in the show notes to book a call with me to just chat about it Awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Now I kind of want to teach that yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:00

Best believe that I'm going to rope you into teaching a couple, a couple sessions, especially on any of your favorite topics. So yeah, Jacqueline will also be teaching the group.

Speaker 1: 2:10

Well, I guess that's just fine right now. My life, well, my life update, I guess, is that I'm going to be a psychologist soon and therefore we'll be able to be roped into your practice. Yeah, so.

Speaker 1: 2:23

I'm defending my education on Friday and then that's kind of it. Then I just have to survive in my internship for another three months, which is great, and then I get to be a doctor. How are you feeling Really good? I mean, I'm going to my like feelings of excitement are slightly suspended because I have to get through this hurdle first. But, um, and I'm like anticipating, every time I go into a major hurdle, I'm like I always think it's going to feel like this watershed, you know emotional day, and then instead it's kind of like oh huh, okay, well, this is just another day, but I'm going to try to really let this one sink in. I mean, it took me it was such a journey getting into my PhD program, um, or any PhD program, and so the fact that it's right around the bend is kind of wild.

Speaker 2: 3:20

I know that is crazy. I mean I just I remember when we first met. I remember talking on Skype for the first time and meeting at the bar after your interview and I can't believe, like you're done now. So this is, this is huge.

Speaker 1: 3:34

Yeah, I know. I mean, we finally get to be a two psychologist headed podcast.

Speaker 2: 3:40

That's exciting that's exciting, yeah, yeah, and I'd love to. When you know we're going to do an episode on what you learned in your dissertation, but also we could talk about like your whole journey, oh we're gonna do a grad school episode in three months Unfiltered.

Speaker 1: 4:02

I've been like rehearsing this episode, the grad school episode, for months. I'm gonna and I'm like I've got like an angry version I'm not gonna do, and then I've got like a gracious version that I'll also probably not do.

Speaker 2: 4:15

We'll make it a juicy one. Juicy spilling the tea it was juicy, six years.

Speaker 1: 4:22

To be honest, yeah, it was Starting with the interview. I mean, I went to that interview and hated it, and then the thing that turned me around was getting drunk with you and Caitlin, yeah, and dragging you through six more years of pain and suffering, so you're welcome. It's so funny because I told you guys I was a gold digger and you seemed to like love that.

Speaker 2: 4:47

And then that's how I got into grad school. Yeah, man, I'm like, this girl is honest. You know, this girl.

Speaker 1: 5:04

It's like an interesting amount of self-awareness. Yeah, I bet not too many people say that at an interview, no sit down.

Speaker 2: 5:12

What's going on? All right. Well, I mean last episode we dug in deep into my childhood trauma.

Speaker 2: 5:18

People are really nice, I mean, all you guys have been really really sweet. I want to respond to messages on on youtube especially, but people, um, were really kind and really supportive about me opening up that much. For people who haven't listened, I talked a lot about, I guess, like childhood trauma that I'm kind of coping with and realizing now, realizing the effects of them and then how I've had all these defense mechanisms over it, like feeling really angry and then trying to control that anger and all that stuff. So the past, ever since we did the episode, I think, I've been, uh, kind of, you know, in a trauma state, like a triggered state.

Speaker 2: 5:59

Um, some days I felt really shaky and just kind of foggy and I, you know, I found it really hard to focus on like details and you know, like things on my schedule slipped my attention, like I just was like a mess and I felt really shaky and insecure. So I kind of felt like as if I was like porous, like not my normal full bodied self, but as if I was like a shaky leaf. Um, so it just reminded me of, like, what trauma does and like what happens when you re-experience it or reprocess it. You just feel like you're in it all over again. Uh, so that was rough, but I'm feeling a little bit better now.

Speaker 1: 6:39

Um is this something you're going to continue processing, continue doing in therapy? Is this something you're going to continue processing, continue doing in therapy?

Speaker 2: 6:45

I think so.

Speaker 2: 6:46

I think the question I had was why didn't more people help me which I think that I've been talking to people who knew me, like therapists and other people, where the way I coped with a lot of this kind of abusive childhood experiences was through anger and also like hyper, you know, being hyper vigilant and working a lot and being like a star student.

Speaker 2: 7:13

So I was really like angry and fighting with my boyfriend and breaking up with him all the time, you know, being kind of uh, I don't know like irritable and um in in and apparently like I talked a lot about boy trouble back then, like being angry with boyfriends. But people are starting to say that when they knew me back then they didn't know the extent of the abuse, they didn't know how bad it was with my mom. So there's been sometimes like a kind of a community reprocessing where it's like, oh, no wonder why you were so angry or so focused on getting out and working hard and how angry you are with your boyfriend because you know all of this stuff that you went through. It just seemed like people didn't know how bad it was, which that's kind of makes me sad.

Speaker 1: 8:05

I think how has this? Are you just like calling them up and saying, hey, I want to talk about this, and then describing what happened, Like how is it happening that they're finding out?

Speaker 2: 8:14

No, I'm just talking to my therapist about the extent of what happened, like all the details and stories that I thought she knew but she really didn't, and also some family members. My grandma just moved to a different place, so there's a lot of, you know, old stuff, old family stuff that's being moved around, and there are some old journals of mine, old emails that I've sent my grandparents that when you look at it like it didn't seem like anything Like I described a dream where I where I wrote this when I was 14. I had a dream where I was thrown in jail and I didn't know why, but basically I found out that I can never leave and I found out that my mom was the one who had me locked up and she basically said well, it's my fault that we're locked up, but it's if it weren't for your stupid father. And so the end of the dream. I realized that I was like trapped in this forever, and now that makes sense, right.

Speaker 2: 9:15

That like, I'm like oh yeah, I know what that feels like. I feel trapped.

Speaker 1: 9:20

It's amazing when dreams can really nail it.

Speaker 2: 9:25

Yeah, so if people I mean the moral of the story is that people are in a tough situation and they're angry I kind of wish I wish I learned how to express it better to get, actually, you know, the help that I needed. But especially with children, when kids are really angry and they have an unstable household, I think the better question, instead of like what's wrong with you or punishing them, is like how can we help you? Like what's going on?

Speaker 1: 9:52

What are they struggling with?

Speaker 2: 9:54

Yeah, like, like, what are they coping with, with this anger, instead of just blaming them, which I feel like I got a lot of like blame and punishment, and this like view of myself is like a bad angry person, when really it was like a way to cope.

Speaker 1: 10:08

So is your view of yourself shifting at all, or is it too early for that?

Speaker 2: 10:15

It's making, it's destabilizing. I think it's making me really confused. What's real? Also, it doesn't help that my mom, I think, probably listening to the episode, texted me saying you're delusional and none of that stuff happened. So that is taking space, because I can't, I can't even, but it's letting me believe, like what was real, like was I really a problematic kid or are my memories real?

Speaker 2: 10:44

You know, just kind of almost, I don't know. Just I'm like fractured into pieces. Is it a problematic case? I think it's. My inner voice is always like trying to cope with this belief that I was or am a bad person. And I know that's not logical when I say it out loud, like I know my life and how I treat people, but there's always a part of me that's like, oh, I've had to overcome being a bad person. And then I'm like was I? Yes, no, so I. Just the view of myself is now feeling like it's all muddled and I don't know what to trust. Yay, healing.

Speaker 1: 11:24

It's all muddled and I don't know what to trust. Yay healing.

Speaker 2: 11:33

So I'm doing great.

Speaker 1: 11:38

Only took 39 years and cancer to get here. But here I am. How are you doing physically? Has the hormone started Much?

Speaker 2: 11:45

better, much better. Now I'm going to start hormone therapy soon to Voxfin. I'm really scared because that's supposed to put me into menopause. So if the next episodes are me just screaming about hot flashes, you're welcome.

Speaker 1: 12:01

Do some menopause episodes.

Speaker 2: 12:03

Do some hormonal hormonal episodes, but I'm I'm through the major part, I'm cancer free and this is all about preventing it. So I'm kind of like it almost kind of feels like a a new start in many ways, like new start to my body and you start to the way I see myself, new start to motherhood and me as a professional helping other people going through stuff that I went through. So it's like it kind of feels like a rebirth in a way. It doesn't feel as like amazing, as like a phoenix rising from the ashes. Right, it feels like I'm just like dragging myself out from the rubble.

Speaker 1: 12:39

It'd be nice if it were more eat, pray, love, but it's more. Yeah, I want to go to bali and just eat javier bardem and then, yeah, find myself.

Speaker 2: 12:50

But you know, we all get to get to where we're going some way all right.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Well, speaking of fucking javier bardem, why don't we move into our discussion of romance?

Speaker 2: 13:04

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, this is making me think about Vicky Cristina Barcelona, one of my favorite movies of all times. Is he in it? Yeah, have you not seen it, jacqueline? Your homework after this is to watch that movie. We're going to talk about this episode, and the next one is going to be all about couples, dynamics and problematic ones, and disconnection and connection. You have to watch that movie, it's so good.

Speaker 2: 13:34

Vicky Cristina Barcelona. It's a Woody Allen movie with Javier Bardem, scarlett Johansson, penelope Cruz and I forgot her other name but the three most beautiful, sensual women in all sorts of ways. You have to watch it. Everyone listening got to watch that movie. If you haven't.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Tell me about the Pursuer Withdrawal thing.

Speaker 2: 13:59

You tell me Okay, so emotion is it emotionally focused? Therapy Is it?

Speaker 1: 14:05

is it emotion focused therapy? Is it? Is it emotion focused therapy?

Speaker 2: 14:07

Okay so emotion focused therapy is this amazing couples therapy modality that you've been learning a lot and I just did an intensive training I think it was last week and it really it was so beautiful because it it just tied together attachment theory and attachment needs with couples dynamics and then what to do about it and emotion regulation, so really just like it was like everything I was looking for and my mind is still blown from it. And yeah, you've been. You've been doing it all year, right?

Speaker 1: 14:40

Yeah, I'm in an EFT rotation, so I've been working with couples for about nine months now and doing a weekly like supervision and didactics. Um, I'll be honest, I mean, the couple that I worked with primarily was extraordinarily difficult, and so my confidence in myself doing EFT is like a little bit low. Um, but I I love the model and it's like if I could master EFT I would feel like a superstar. It's like all of my growth edges in one. It would make me into the psychologist I want to be. So I'm actually joining a practice as a postdoc next year with an EFT focus as well, so it's going to be a big part of my work.

Speaker 2: 15:23

Nice. Well, why don't you say what the basic model is or the goal is for EFT, and then we can yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:28

So the so? Uh, I'm not going to get too in the weeds, but basically the way I would think about it is you have a couple and they've been, uh, they've been missing each other, right? So if we think about any couple, any person is going to make bids, like bids for attention, bids for love, and the way we kind of react to those bids is important and what will often happen is, over time or because of our dynamic or because of our attachment history, we're not responding optimally to our partner and we're getting into a cycle where what's really happening emotionally is something like I want love, I want to know that you care about me. I don't know how to get that from you, but I'm trying. But how that's expressed comes across very differently. It can come across aggressively, like um yeah, why can't you ever do the dishes? Or like why, why aren't we having sex? Like what do you even give a shit, right? So it's like it comes across as really confronting and shaming. But what it's really saying is like I have an unmet need and I want you to fill it, and I don't understand why you're not filling it, and I just want you to show up for me, right, and show me that you value me, and that tends to be more the pursuer.

Speaker 1: 16:56

Like I am somebody. Maybe I have an attachment history where if I wasn't the one to speak up, no one else would. Maybe I have an attachment history where, in order to have people pay attention to me, I have to be as loud as possible, I have to make myself seen, because otherwise I'm just going to go unnoticed. And so you know, I'm going to go after it. I'm going to want to resolve conflicts right away. I mean, I like I'm going to be the person who says we can't go to bed without resolving this. We have to talk about it, we have to get it out in the open, we have to. Let's have this fight, let's just do it Like, come on, come on, come on. Like, connect with me. You know, like, don't, don't move away from me, don't ignore me, Don't right, don't disappear. Like, in order for me to feel secure, you have to be in this with me and you have to be communicating with me.

Speaker 1: 17:48

And, um, and what the other person, the kind of withdrawer in the dynamic, might be doing is saying oh God, I don't know how to respond to this. Um, either, it might be like this is a lot of intensity that I, like, my nervous system can't regulate, or it might be something like, god, I can't do anything right, like you know. Yet again, like, okay, fine, I didn't take the trash out, I didn't do the dishes, but like, do you ever notice what I do do right? Like I just feel like everything I do is not enough and it just makes me want to hide and disappear and withdraw. And you know what they're saying, kind of underneath right is like why am I not good enough? Like how can I be good enough? I don't. I keep trying but nothing happens. And I'm afraid to like, I'm afraid to speak up, I'm afraid to tussle with you because it's really just regulating for me and I don't know what's going to happen and I'm too scared of a blow up because that could fracture us forever. And I'm too scared of a blow up because that could fracture us forever.

Speaker 1: 18:53

So their attachment history might be really different. Right, they might be the conciliatory one growing up, they might be the one whose needs never mattered, and so they just learned to keep them to themselves and keep quiet. They might have come from a home where people were really like loud and aggressive and scary, and so they learned to like keep, you know, keep their feelings for themselves and kind of hide away with it. And so, really, you have both people in the couple longing for each other and longing for acceptance. But the way that they're communicating is basically creating a moment of like oh in each person.

Speaker 1: 19:30

And as soon as that oh happens, like oh, okay, I didn't, I didn't do the trash. Oh, okay, uh-oh, uh-oh, this feels bad, this feels bad. Okay, now I'm reacting from this place of like insecurity and like unsafeness, and so I'm going to uh. And then that like withdraw and sends them like an uh-oh to the pursuer who's like oh, my God, they're withdrawing from me again. They clearly don't care about me, only care about themselves. What can I do to get them to love me? Okay, I'll just chase them down, so they'll have to talk to me, so this anxiety can go away and it's just us back and forth. Yeah, Would you say. That resonates with your workshop.

Speaker 2: 20:05

Yeah, and I love that they summarized and said you know the goal is. They call it COCO, which I loved, which is co-regulation and co-creation of meaning. So I love that they said that. In EFT they say you know, the research shows this is really sad that 70% of couple problems don't get resolved ever.

Speaker 2: 20:34

So what that means is like you're thinking about all the fights that you're having with your partner. Now. You're gonna have them probably 70 percent forever, but it's less about what you're fighting about and, like Esther Perel, says a lot how you're fighting. So, if the idea is okay, in these fights, the problem is that when a couple can't co-regulate, they can't come together and then calm down and really attune to each other's needs in that moment. When we talk about emotion regulation, I don't want to say like it's a way that everyone needs to keep calm, but it's like if one person is sad and feeling disconnected or vulnerable or scared or whatever, what's regulating is that for for the partner to see that and be with them in it and then they create meaning around it, right? So it's really that coming together and connecting that's really important.

Speaker 2: 21:33

And as you were saying, people have different, learn different, coping mechanisms. To get that right Like the pursuer pursues. They push, they demand, they scream they. Why don't you? They come at you, right, sometimes, literally like walking, you know, chasing that other person and the other one withdraws, right, the the avoid, shut down, freezes like this.

Speaker 2: 21:56

I and I love thinking about this because I'm so sick of the way attachment theory is talked about in instagram and social media it's like what are you? Are you avoidant or are you anxious? Yeah, like anxious people, they just need love and and you just learn that you're good enough on your own. And avoidance you suck and you should just stop hating people so much. You're trash, right.

Speaker 2: 22:21

And it didn't really make any sense to me because, although people tend to pursue more or avoid more or withdraw more, but to put people in like two categories or actually three categories one's like you're perfect, don't worry about it, right To be. Like you chase too much or you run away too much. That didn't. That felt too simplistic to be real. So I like how this is talking about. This is your dynamic, this is how this is like. You are feeling alone, disconnected and and scared, and you want your partner in it with you. And how do you get that?

Speaker 2: 22:56

Yeah, so it's really more like what you're doing in a position than a person, because what also can happen is if you know the pursuer goes hey, come on, why don't you do the dishes? Come on, like what's going on, right, and like pursues, pursues, and the withdrawer pulls away and shuts down. It's like I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Okay, fine, whatever, eventually, if that that. So the withdrawer withdraws and they that signals the pursuer oh my God, I'm being abandoned, I have to go chase, right. So it's this kind of like reciprocal, like withdraw, withdraw, chase, chase, chase. So it's this kind of like reciprocal, like withdraw, withdraw, chase, chase chase. So it's like a cycle. And then often, when that cycle gets so extreme, they switch, the withdrawer snaps and goes like fine, get it, you know, like what do you want? And then the and then the pursuer gives up right, shuts down.

Speaker 1: 23:47

So it's fine, I don't want to be the one always fighting for this.

Speaker 2: 23:51

So there really is always like kind of a back and forth and, as you said, it's just like a pattern of missing each other.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Yeah, so yeah, I think the kind of one of the goals you're saying, like the co-regulation piece, for instance is there's this move called tempo, and this is kind of one of the major things that the psychologist is trying to do with the couple. Um, so the first, basically, what you're trying to do is say, I like to call it the line of vulnerability. So, like below the line of vulnerability, is what's really going on, like in your heart, right when it's like I want to know that you love me. I want, can I want you in this feeling with me, so that you can help me, so that I know that you're there for me, right? Um, and the?

Speaker 1: 24:38

You know it might be like the why? Why do you think I do everything wrong? Why am I not good enough? Why, like that's all the stuff that needs to be communicated, but instead is communicated ineffectively, kind of above the line of vulnerability. That's like why don't you never take the trash out? Like, why am I? Do you just like you're just expecting to do everything for you, like while you're just fucking around? It's like that kind of stuff, um, but so what?

Speaker 2: 25:03

what you're really gonna look like right.

Speaker 1: 25:08

So you're gonna like look at this, at like the latest fight, right, and you're gonna try to locate for each person, what was the first oh. So this is the T in tempo which is trigger. So like, when was that first moment where you go, oh, this is something doesn't feel good, something doesn't feel good and I have to respond to it. So once you kind of have the trigger, you know, located, then you can say, okay, that was what started all of this. What did that trigger sort of say to me, like, what was the emotion that came up when that trigger happened? Because then, as we know, emotions have action urges and they propel us into doing things that maybe otherwise we wouldn't do. So, like with the trash example, it's like my trigger was seeing that the trash hadn't been taken out and the emotion that I felt was anger. Well, the next thing you have to understand is, like, what's the meaning of that trigger to you? How did you interpret what happened? The interpretation was he doesn't care about me, he doesn't care about me, he doesn't respect me. So it's like, okay, if that's the meaning that you're assigning to that action, then like, of course you're going to be mad, right, and of course, you're going to be kind of a tacky. What was the protective action? This is P.

Speaker 1: 26:25

What was the protective action that you took because of that emotion? How did you try to protect your sense of self, your sense of worth? Right, like your sense of self, your sense of worth right, like your sense of self-esteem? Okay, the protection action I took was I'm not just gonna sit here and take it, I'm not just gonna be a wife who does everything for her husband. I'm gonna call him on it, you know, and I'm gonna tell him that I'm mad. It's like oh, okay, that makes sense, because you're worried that if you don't do that, you're gonna disrespect yourself, because you already feel disrespected. And now you'd have two people doing it instead of just one. And then the O is what the therapist does, which is just organize it. So it's like helping you to tell that story. Then you move over to the other person, right?

Speaker 1: 27:05

So your trigger was being blamed for not taking the trash out. Oh, the emotion you experienced was like anxiety. The meaning you said was oh, I'm just never good enough, I can never do anything, right. So your protective action was to shut down and not talk about it, because you don't want to be further accused of this and you feel like you can't explain. If you never do anything, right, then how are you going to explain it? You don't do anything, right? So of course you're not going to explain it, right? So then you're going to run and hide, right? So that's a protective action and what we want to get the people to do, the.

Speaker 1: 27:37

When I saw that the trash wasn't taken out, I got angry because I thought that that meant you didn't care about me and didn't respect me, and that made me want to attack you and, you know, get really mad at you and tell you exactly how I felt. But I want you to know that, like, really, that was about me fearing that you don't want me, you don't love me, because once you can, once the other partner can understand that it's like oh, it's not that I, it's not that I do everything wrong, it's that she's really longing for me to show her that I love her and she's experiencing some of the things I do as as a real, like, attachment wound. It's not about like, am I good at chores, right, and so then that kind of that's, that's that vulnerability that allows the partner to then respond differently.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Yeah, yeah, and what you're talking about is a form of assessment, like really getting people to tune to what was going on in those conflict patterns and be like, okay, let's see that pursue withdraw dynamic and the really cool thing about it is that it's about the couples and to stop blaming each other and stop like getting at each other with these hard emotions, with a pursuit like stonewalling and fighting right, but to more see, hey, this is, we're tackling this negative cycle together. This pursue withdraw is a thing that's happening and we got to come together to figure it out. Yeah, I, I also. I also find it so validating to hear this model and because it's basically it gives a lot of legitimacy to the idea that when you don't feel connected to your partner, the person who's supposed to be your rock, your foundation, your you know, literally partner, it's crazy making right.

Speaker 2: 29:26

Like it. You know to feel like someone doesn't care about you or someone doesn't see you. It drives you nuts, especially if you had an insecure attachment or abandonment issues growing up right. So for this to escalate that quickly and to kind of go into these default coping mechanisms and make sense, but yeah, what I was so powerful in the workshop was that they described they took one day to talk about the withdraw or and then one day to talk about the pursuer and I've always was like am I more avoidant or am I more anxious? Right, we've always talked about that. Like am I avoidant? But it's, it's really cool. They describe the withdrawer almost like the internalizer, the fixer, people pleaser, the one who tends to be more, like they said, like more detailed oriented and conscientious, but really I think it's more of this. People pleaser the one who has learned that you can get safety and your needs met by deescalating. So maybe they grew up in an environment where it was explosive and chaotic and they learned okay, my job, if I need to get my needs met, I got to calm everyone down, avoid conflict and the fear that's driving.

Speaker 2: 30:43

That is so sad. It's like if we keep going like this, if we keep escalating. Something terrible is going to happen. There's going to be. We're going to say something we don't mean, something that we can't take back. We're going to do something to damage the relationship or our kids, or something, but continuing this escalation is bad. So what do I do? Is I? I freeze?

Speaker 2: 31:08

And the thing is that it might be obvious that the withdraw, the freezing, stonewalling is making it worse, but they feel like they're in, they feel like there's so much pressure, like they're walking on eggshells or walking in a landmine where they go. Well, I, I know that's freezing is bad, but I also think that it's not as bad as escalating.

Speaker 2: 31:35

Right, so this is like the lesser of two evils, but I feel like I'm trying so hard to make everything work and deescalate and keep everyone calm and mediate and I'm still not being successful. I'm a failure.

Speaker 1: 31:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:51

So it's so sad because when we did this like experience exercise where we closed our eyes and like put ourselves in the in the position of a withdrawer, and there was parts of it I really resonated with. But I really pictured Alex, my husband and I know the thing that drives me nuts about him is when we fight.

Speaker 2: 32:12

I'll be like say something like just tell him, like I don't even know if you love me or like me, you know. And then he's just like and then he's trying to take all the things that we talk about. It's like okay, validate, he goes. I get that. I understand why you feel that way, like that's not what I mean.

Speaker 2: 32:29

Like just tell me you love me, okay, well, um I do so cute you don't seem to listen, and so I like like picturing myself in his position and feeling like no, like I know that he gets paralysis around, like when he tries to do the right thing, like he freezes when it comes to making the right decision. He's such an optimizer and I felt like so much sympathy for him as I'm picturing like the feeling of like, oh, no, no, I don't know what to do, but freezing is at least. Nothing bad is gonna happen here. Yeah, I'm like crying and like in the workshop oh, that's so sweet.

Speaker 1: 33:12

That's probably so helpful for your marriage, honestly.

Speaker 1: 33:14

I mean I came home and I was like I'm sorry, and he was just like, okay, I think the reframe I've seen my couples really appreciate is both both the pursuer and the withdrawer fighting for the relationship and they're in their own ways. And it can feel, when you're in it, as if it's the opposite. Right, like the withdrawer, like is literally not fighting, they're running away, they're they're just abdicating, right, but that's not actually what happened. What's happening, like what you're saying is no, they're this is their way of fighting for it, this is their way of like keeping everybody safe and doing the best they know how.

Speaker 1: 33:52

And what we need to do in EFT is to help the couple understand that these moves make sense and that they're not a sign of a lack of love. And if they are make sense and that they're not a sign of a lack of love, and if they are, then that's a different story, you know. But broadly, like, they can be an expression of love and same for the pursuer. Right, it can feel to the withdraw like yeah, that's you fighting for us, like you calling me names and, you know, chasing me around the house and making me feel like nothing. But it is, it's trying to be like let's get this out in the open, like let's do this thing, let's figure this out, like please be in this with me, um and so, really like recognizing, like I'm my, I'm the therapist. I'm not here to shame you. I'm not here to referee. I'm not here to tell you who's right or who's wrong. I'm here to help you make sense of these moves for each other, so you can get back to understanding like, oh, like, we do care about this.

Speaker 2: 34:50

Yeah, I always talk about this in the workshop.

Speaker 2: 34:53

I always interpreted withdrawal as I don't care or like like a rejection, like I felt, I felt abandoned in those moments where I'm like screaming for him to say something and tell him, reassure me, and then he's like freezing up. I'm like, oh, this is a sign he doesn't care, right? It's kind of like all of instagram will tell you the same. Like people are avoidant, are avoiding real commitment. They don't really, you know, want love, but no, they're learning. They've learned that it's like the difference between like they're the benzo, whereas a pursuer is a stimulant. They've learned to stay safe by and stay connected by de-escalating, by deactivating, getting things calm, not moving, going, going, slow, right. So that that really helps me reframe the way I see like avoidance or that withdrawal pattern.

Speaker 1: 35:51

What is your experience like as the pursuer?

Speaker 2: 35:56

Thanks for assuming I'm a pursuer, but um, they taught when they in the workshop. They talked about pursuers as um like I, I saw it as more externalizers, ones who chase, ones who use fight rather than flight right Like go after um, sometimes in the extreme forms, is like manipulation or control or pushing or yelling Right. So I think that pursuers tend to get are more visible Right and the and the. The negative dynamic is seen in the pursuer Like they're the ones yelling they're the ones demanding.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Right. So they, I, I, I identified strongly with the struggle of the pursuer, feeling like they're the bad one. In fact, actually in the workshop it was so cool they brought in a couple and then had them do a couple's therapy session in a different room and got it live streamed into our workshop. So all of us therapists were learning this and it was really cool to watch. Because it was a couple.

Speaker 2: 37:02

I felt so sorry for both of them. They've been therapy for a while and the man was the pursuer and the woman had a lot of trauma. So she was withdrawing the withdrawer and they had gotten into a fight the night before and they you could see that they were just like totally dysregulated they were. They could not get out of the pursuit withdraw cycle.

Speaker 2: 37:30

He was sitting there being like I don't know what else to do, I don't. Does she even love me? Does she want me? Like, tell me what to do, tell me what to say. I can't. Maybe I'm fighting for nothing, maybe I'm not you, you know fighting for a relationship that's broken, I don't know. And he, for an hour and a half he was just like high, high levels. And then the woman was sitting there like this if you can't see. It's just like she just was staring straight ahead, looking almost like disdainful, just like turning her head away from him, and just at the, staring at the therapist, just not saying anything, and I could really feel like he was like, please, tell me what to do, tell me fight for me, please. And she was just like I would go shaking your head if that's what I was getting to which one?

Speaker 1: 38:19

the?

Speaker 2: 38:19

which one? Which side?

Speaker 1: 38:21

if, if jason were like, had his hand up and and he was looking contemptuously and just silence, I would be ballistic.

Speaker 2: 38:29

You're right, it makes you go crazy. And the interesting thing was they both could not come together, they both couldn't connect and the people watching, all of us watching. There were so many more comments about the man like, oh, he was so dysregulated, I could see how hard it was for him to calm down and and that must have been so intense. And, yeah, the the trainer said like, yeah, that was a lot. I basically had to spend most of my time trying to calm him down. But there he pointed out that they're both suffering and I was like, yeah, we're all of our attentions to going to the pursuer, the guy who's like making demands because he looks the most quote abusive and problematic. But her being silent is also part of that dynamic, right?

Speaker 2: 39:20

Like she was not breaking is also part of that dynamic. Right, like she was not breaking, she was not. That if you are begging and like what you pursue, her feels like they're putting themselves out there. They're like asking and begging to be loved. Yeah, when the other person shuts down, it's, it's like it's torture, like it. I really, I really felt for both of them. But the pursuer, it's like this feeling of, as you were saying, like I have to fight for someone to love me, otherwise I'm going to be left alone. I'm going to be alone here. Yeah, and they said, like when a pursuer gives up and stops pursuing, that's when you get into trouble, because the withdrawer is not going to come Right and the pursuer is just going to give up its. You know the attempts to grab and connect and reengage.

Speaker 1: 40:12

So it's very difficult as a therapist. It's very difficult as a therapist, you know you're trying to give kind of equal care and you know that the withdrawer in a sense has, you know, in a way they haven't been listened to for a long time. That's why they shut down. And so then you as a therapist, you don't want to be just yet one other person who abandons them. And yet you've got this pursuer who's taking up so much space in the room, often interrupting, you know, wanting to clarify and it's fun to work with a pursuer because they're communicative, but you're really kind of trying to manage affect and help them make sense of affect so that they can share it, can share it. I mean, one of the best moments in my relationship with Jason I think I've said this on here before was when I was being kind of a bitch to him for no reason, and I don't even know if he picked up on it. It was kind of subtle. I mean, I think a lot of it was in my head, but I remember cooling, going in a different room and cooling off and then being like, oh, like I'm being a bitch to him for no reason. I think that's because I don't even remember what it was because of, but like I think it's because I just like really want his attention and I'm having to share it with his son, and it's like making me.

Speaker 1: 41:34

I had this great moment where I was like, oh, like, I'll go tell him that because, like I feel so safe in my relationship with him that I can. I literally feel safe enough to be like hey, guess what? I was just a bitch to you for no reason, because I was feeling like I wanted your attention and I was having to compete for it and I didn't like that and like that's the kind of thing that only happens when you feel ultimate safety in a relationship. Like I would have never said anything like that to my ex Um, but that's what, that's what you want to create in the environment so that you can regulate right. So if I can say that to him, then he can be like, okay, I'll give you some attention. Like I'm sorry you had to feel like you competed for it, yada, yada, yada. And then I feel my needs are met do you find yourself more in the?

Speaker 2: 42:16

do you find yourself more in the withdrawer or the pursuer position in your relationships?

Speaker 1: 42:24

Probably pursuer. But probably pursuer Because you always identify as someone with avoidant attachment. Yeah Well, I think that was inaccurate. I think I was just more interested in having fun than being in a relationship back then. Uh, I think when Nick uh, I don't know, it's tough I'm sure Paul would have said I was the withdrawer.

Speaker 2: 42:54

I mean I would say in that relationship you definitely were the withdrawer. I remember like you would literally freeze up, right. You would like try to console him because he was more the aggressor of like yelling at you about something.

Speaker 1: 43:13

Yeah, I mean I was with the withdrawer because I was getting tons of aggression and I was out of moves. There was nothing I could say or do except for escape. That was the only thing that could reliably kind of calm him down. So, uh, yeah, I think I don't know, I don't think I have a clear answer to that. I mean, it's always made me very anxious when I can sense there's conflict but they don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 1: 43:39

I think I'm more of the withdrawer in friendships. But, like with Jason, he has a pattern of like he will definitely talk things out, but the next day maybe I think things are resolved, but the next day he's like hurting from it and he'll be quite distant. And that makes me crazy. What does that look like? When you say distant, like he'll okay, we are a very, very touchy, feely couple and suddenly you can tell he doesn't want to touch me, like he will. If I like, asked to cuddle with him, he'll put his arm around me, but it's with no enthusiasm. He doesn't naturally go for it. Um, he'll sit on the opposite side of the couch, he's just quieter.

Speaker 1: 44:28

I mean, I remember we got in this huge fight about bullies and at the end of the night he kind of surrendered, he kind of let me have my way, and so I was happy, right. So the next day I was in a good mood and he was not in a good mood, um, and we went to visit my grandmother and on the way he was distant and cold. And then when we got there he was like great outgoing. I was like, oh, this has cured it, everything's fine now. And then as soon as we leave, he's like distant, cold again. And it was just like that the whole day. And then at at night I just I had been trying to bid for his attention all day, like trying to break the ice, and then at night we go to bed and I just like started quietly crying and that's when he's like finally reached for me and like cuddled.

Speaker 2: 45:16

But I just cried, oh but you know what, jason, it broke the cycle.

Speaker 1: 45:24

Yeah, jason really treats me like a God. I can't believe I teared up over that Whoa. He treats me like a delightful object is the wrong word but like some, something he's always just delighted by. And when he's cold to me, I'm like I can't stand the image of, I can't stand the loss of that and like the new image that he has of me. So that really makes me crazy.

Speaker 2: 45:57

What came up for you? What made you tear up?

Speaker 1: 46:00

Oh Christ, this is affect deep Christ. This is affect deepening. This is an EFT move. Um, yeah, I think any disconnection with him is very painful for me. Um, he is my safe person and when I feel disrejected by him, then that's, I don't know, it just sucks.

Speaker 2: 46:28

What goes through you when you feel iced out.

Speaker 1: 46:34

At first I feel like I can overcome it. At first I'm like, okay, I'll make this thing, I'll be really charming, I'll be like really cute and charming, and he'll, he won't be able to resist me. And then he resists me, and that's when I start being like, okay, fine, then I'll reject you too, like I'll sit over here. And then that doesn't work either, and then it's just very like I don't know what does go through me. This is the thing I already blocked the affect anxiety, anger, sadness certainly anxiety what else?

Speaker 1: 47:13

certainly anxiety. I'm trying to connect with it and I don't know if I can. I blocked the affect, I think. I mean there's, uh, I think that you know, being in like in bed, like feeling very lonely and rejected, is like the hardest moment for me. Um, I, I don't know that that was as hard in other relationships. I think I'm so used to being his darling that when I'm not that anymore, then I feel like a very I get like a very insecure kind of like. Oh my God, have I broken this forever? Like am I never going to, you know, reclaim that sort of status in his eyes? Um, like, I'm very. I never seen jason mad at me. I'm sure he has been, but he's never like, he's never yelled at me, he's never been short with me, he's never been a dick. And I'm like I live in fear for that moment because it feels like it'll shatter something although in some ways maybe it would be good.

Speaker 2: 48:35

I mean depends on anger is really confusing and I feel like it's often talked about like anger is bad, is a bad thing, but like I wonder if that actually be a good thing one day. Cause like same with same with Alex, same with my relationship, where he has been angry with me but it comes across as very cold and very like like almost like kind of a condescending disgust feeling and which is really terrible, relax, um, but I wonder, you know, is some of the secure attachment and co-regulation. Is like being able to have these range of emotions together and still feel safe? Of course, not like if you're angry and like you know we don't want him to, you know, start to get violent or aggressive with you, but just express anger and healthy ways that still stay connected. Like I'm so pissed at what you said the other day, you know, like something that's that has like a safety around. I can be my full self, even the parts of me that feel scary and vulnerable, and you are there and see it and stay with me.

Speaker 1: 49:49

Yeah, and I would. It's not that I think I would lose love for him, it's that I don't. I don't want to shatter the illusion he has of me. I guess he has of me. I guess I don't want to see myself suddenly being something he's really mad at and so mad that he's willing to treat me differently. But obviously we're going to have to get over that. It's part of things. I've been bitchy to him, right, and he's. I've never yelled at him, though, but he's. How does he respond when you're?

Speaker 2: 50:25

bitchy. How does he respond when you're like pursuing in that bitchy way?

Speaker 1: 50:34

he, he will. If something feels unfair to him, he'll say that you know, and that it's so funny, because every time he does that I'm like you're not supposed to talk about how it's unfair. You're supposed to tell me you love me, dumbass Like you're, didn't you know that when I was being bitchy, I was just trying to, like, you know, get you to like, tell me that this is the whole point of the pursue withdrawal dynamic, right, like I'm pointing out, like I don't like that thing you did. It made me feel unloved. So you, you argue, tell me that that's not what's happening. Instead, he's like that wasn't a fair thing to say. I try very hard in all of these.

Speaker 1: 51:15

Fine, fuck you then. And I like lick my wounds for 15 minutes.

Speaker 2: 51:19

I'm like, okay, fine yeah, the fantasy is that you can have all of your pursue, withdraw defenses and the person sees underneath it in ways that you know you don't have to be vulnerable. You'd be like, can't you see that? I was just saying that I want you to say I love you. You know, like. But then if you're being aggressive or you know pushy or you know stonewalling, then it's hard for the other person. It brings up their, all their defenses too.

Speaker 1: 51:47

So everyone got their hackles up and of course I would do the same. I mean, I'm very sensitive to like. I don't know I can be quite sensitive to unfairness. I try not to be. But yeah, I mean, I think he, I think like why we work is that he responds very well to those things. And I, I'm also very regulated with like if I sense that I'm becoming bitchy, then I usually am like I gotta go, like I gotta, I gotta cool down. This isn't a good.

Speaker 2: 52:19

I'm not gonna like myself the few fights I've seen you guys get into, and usually it's like you're on the phone and you're like yelling at him about making plans or something, and my impression is that he apologizes and he just immediately goes okay, I'll do whatever you want.

Speaker 1: 52:38

I'm so sorry yeah, I mean it. Yeah, it depends. I mean he has a couple things where he's kind of stalwart, um, like the travel thing. But I will say he he tends to apologize for a lot of things that he doesn't need to apologize for and that that works well because signals to. It's not that I want him thinking that he's doing wrong things all the time. I really don't know. 90% of the time I'm like you really don't need to apologize to me for that. I was not upset, but I do. I like knowing that he's someone who reflects on his behavior and is like always wanting to make me feel okay and to like the ship again, like that gives me a sense of security.

Speaker 2: 53:21

Yeah I I also that you bring up a good point, that that over apologizing is like that fond response. That's a form of withdrawing right. It's a form of just being like okay sorry.

Speaker 2: 53:34

Yeah, you're totally right, yeah, just capitulate, just like flipping onto your back and being submissive. It's like, yeah, yeah, whatever you want. And sometimes that's even annoying for the pursuer, because the pursuer wants the connection they want like a real person there. They don't want just like a okay, fine, whatever, because it's not even. It feels like they're not even engaging with it.

Speaker 1: 53:56

It's just a way to like calm down, calm down, calm down.

Speaker 2: 54:00

So right, and it's tough when there's like an over apology.

Speaker 1: 54:03

I don't get it like I gave you everything that you wanted I said you could have your way, and it's like I wasn't trying to have my way. I was trying for you to love me you don't want.

Speaker 2: 54:11

You want to give me my way and actually apologize for things not apologize for everything, but just certain things in a legit, realistic way. Yeah, okay, fine, got it, got it, figured it out. Yeah, it's a weird thing, when we did the exercise on the pursuer, I had this really intense insight. That was, you know, kind of intense for the trauma that I'm processing. But when I was like, yeah, I'm definitely a pursuer, I fight for the connection, I fight for people. But then they had us picture what it would be like for a pursuer to reach, reach, reach and then not get it. And so you feel like you're all alone and you, you know you can't fight anymore. You're all alone and no one's coming to get you. Yeah, um, you're supposed to feel. I mean, normally people feel sad when they you know it's. It's really putting yourself back in the place of feeling abandoned. But actually what I felt was terror, was absolute fear, and I then I pictured my mom coming at me, like she used to come at me when I was little like chasing me around the house yeah

Speaker 2: 55:33

yeah, and the ultimate pursuer and I, I imagine like the same kind of thing of like being backed in a corner and trying to run.

Speaker 2: 55:40

Try, I used to like it was such a pursue, withdraw dynamic I literally would run around the house trying to find a place where I could lock a door and eventually, when she removed all the locks or and all the doors, um, from the hinges, I learned to like climb out into the balcony and even to the side of the building where I almost died a couple of times, like to the roof. Yeah, I mean, I literally was withdrawing, I was running for my life and and that's what came up for me and I was like, oh my God, I realized that I pursue situations to make me feel safe, like I would when I would be in that position. I sometimes, if I made it down, like sometimes my mom would call the doorman to tell them not to let me downstairs and lock the door. But when I could, I would leave and go to my dad's house, and so I was pursuing that connection to keep me safe from the one that I was trying to withdraw from. So I was like, oh, no wonder why I don't identify strongly with avoidant or anxious attachment.

Speaker 2: 56:44

I'm both. I'm disorganized, oh fun Congratulations.

Speaker 1: 56:50

Yeah, because you are forever branded with a D.

Speaker 2: 56:55

Nope, disorganized.

Speaker 1: 56:56

I'm a little bit of both.

Speaker 2: 56:58

Yep, disorganized. I'm a little bit of both, but yeah, I like thinking about how it's so important for our survival and our regulation and safety to feel close and secure with someone. Like, secure attachment with someone is such a key point for human survival and sometimes we don't like to admit it because that's almost like no, we should be okay by ourselves. Like no, it's important to feel safe with people and then we learn all these different ways to get that safety and sometimes it's counterproductive. I'm going to look for the resources. That's literally like behind.

Speaker 2: 57:38

Oh here it is no-transcript with sue johnson. This is a little bit more for I think it's a little bit more for clinicians anyway. But I'll link these two books to um the resources because I think they're excellent and I'm like now at eft die hard.

Speaker 1: 58:14

It's so funny because sue johnson the kind of looks like a Dolly Parton-esque character, like big coiffed hair, southern accent, and yet brilliant, like she's the total example of like don't judge a book by its cover. She's like this therapy is absolutely brilliant. So like yeah, getting Hold Me Tight, great idea, great idea for couples she passed away last year.

Speaker 2: 58:38

Do you know that? Yeah, and apparently like tight, great idea, great idea for couples. She passed away last year. Do you know that? Yeah, and apparently like everyone loved her, she, they said that she was like a lovely person, um, so it was a real big loss.

Speaker 1: 58:48

So hold me tight all righty. Well, we'll be back with another episode on this topic. I think I'm also going to talk about my dissertation, maybe next week. So we've got some fun stuff coming up and if you would like to help us co-regulate and get to our vulnerable under the line of vulnerability, you could tell us that you love us with a five-star reading on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and a little comment, and we'll see you next week Spotify in the little comment, and we'll see you next week by accessing this podcast.

Speaker 1: 59:22

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