Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 0:08

Hey, little helpers. It's Dr Kibbe, Real quick before we dive in. If you've ever listened to this podcast and thought why didn't anyone teach me this stuff sooner? That's exactly why we created the Kula Mind Community a space to learn real relationship tools directly from us and to connect with others, loving someone who struggles with their mental health, and we also just help you show up in your relationships as your authentic self. So come join us. We'd love to have you. If you sign up right now, you'll get a 50% discount off the first month. It's a discount that I'm not offering for very much longer. So really sign up as soon as you can and check out the link in the show notes, or go to coolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 0:51

Hey, little helpers. Today we have a really cool guest. Her name is Amber Rae. She's an international bestselling author, best known for the books Lovable and Choose Wonder Over Worry. Amber, welcome. I first met you, I want to say, like 13 years ago when I was a wee lass of like 21 years old and have kind of followed you on Instagram ever since. So it's really fun to be able to reconnect now.

Amber Rae: 1:17

So fun. I know I was trying to remember. I'm like, were we at the standard? I don't know. I'm like I was trying to remember where in New York we were when we met, but I have this like vision of where we were sitting the table like I have. But yes, it's so good. That's all I have too is.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 1:35

I have like a flashball memory. Yes, um, and it was interesting because I remember. So I I followed along on your Instagram and you started writing like a lot of inspirational posts and a lot of journaling and kind of art projects. And then you, I remember you had this husband who you I think you both would like wear hats together. I remember as the team, you guys both wear hats. There were some hats and you seem like a big part of your story.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 2:07

And then all of a sudden, one day there was a post that kind of suggested that there had been a big change and there was a new man. And I've since learned that your first husband was your best friend, that you married. And then your second husband is kind of this um, spectacular love story and kibbe and I have, um, I like I bowed out of my engagement really soon before my wedding and kibbe divorced interestingly divorced the guy that she had been like really in love with through her 20s and then married her best friend, who she is now much more in love with. So it's just kind of like interesting how we all sort of fit together but also have major differences in this story.

Amber Rae: 2:57

Fun collision of stories. I love this.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 2:59

Yeah, so can you kind of just give the background on like writing lovable and what, what your story was?

Amber Rae: 3:08

Yeah, absolutely Well. The story was based on this wild life experience that I lived, which was four years ago, while married. I looked into the eyes of a stranger and it was like I suddenly woke up and I didn't even know. I don't want to say the spell that I was under, because, but it felt like I was kind of asleep and I had been in a nine year relationship and marriage with my best friend, who was never my romantic partner, but I was desperately trying to convince myself that he was my person, because in a lot of ways, our relationship checked a lot of boxes. We got a long break, we had a good time together, we traveled, we enjoyed each other's work, we had a great shared community and we liked each other's families and it's like isn't that enough? Shouldn't I be grateful?

Amber Rae: 3:55

But at the same time, some essential needs were really unmet for me, which was the vulnerability and the intimacy and the depth of connection, the sexual relationship. Um, those things were never really online for for us and you know, for I wanted it to be there but just couldn't figure out how to make it work. And I think you know I very much had the mindset of of I can make this work and I can figure this out, and maybe another session of therapy or a self-help book or a workshop is going to be the thing that finally brings us closer together. Or you know, in our Latin, the last iteration, we were business partners in Mexico building a land project together, and you know this wasn't conscious for me at the time, but I think I thought if I make him my business partner and if we build this thing together, then finally I'll get the kind of intimacy and closeness that I haven't been able to reach or access in this relationship.

Amber Rae: 4:57

And so all of that was kind of online. And then I look into this stranger's eyes and it was like wait, this is what connection is supposed to feel like. And it was as if the house of cards kind of came burning down and I suddenly could no longer pretend or ignore, deny what my true feelings were. Um, and it was. It was so strange is that, like I didn't know, I was pretending. You know I was, and I think when we want something or at least my experience was I had to be very convincing of myself. And so, you know, I was very much in the kind of knew, I couldn't unknow, and then it was just facing. Facing the kind of reality of what really was, instead of what I wanted it to be.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 5:55

I mean, yeah, that is very resonant. Um. Can you clarify what you mean by? It was never a romantic relationship Like, was that explicit? Or was it that you were acting as? It was never a romantic relationship Like, was that explicit, or was it that you were acting?

Amber Rae: 6:11

as if it were a romantic relationship but, not feeling it.

Amber Rae: 6:14

We just didn't have sex. So a little bit in the beginning, like, and that just like wasn't where our connection shined, that would like that. The chemistry wasn't there and I thought we would figure it out. And he proposed six months into dating. Like that, the chemistry wasn't there and I thought we would figure it out and he proposed six months into dating. And so you know, I said yes and I think making a commitment of that, like making that kind of commitment, so I was like we'll figure it out, we'll figure it out, we'll figure it out, I just like kept thinking we would figure that piece out.

Amber Rae: 6:39

We never figured that piece out and I think you know I don't want to speak for him, but I think there was a lot of shame there for me and is there something wrong with us and is there something wrong with me? And so I think I also pushed it down because of that shame. And you know, we were in therapy for a period of time and never told our therapist we didn't have sex, you know. So it was like it was almost like the one shame inducing truth that we were afraid to really acknowledge, because I can speak for myself here, not for him. But I, you know, it was like, if we would give voice to that, maybe we would have to look more honestly at what our connection really was. And so it's, like you know, we were like cuddly and, like you know, like cuddle, like friends do, but it it was just like not, not intimate, not sexual.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:29

And were you friends, like were you friends for nine years before or were you married for years?

Amber Rae: 7:34

We were engaged for seven.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 7:37

Oh, wow.

Amber Rae: 7:38

And married for two. Yeah, I mean a seven year engagement. Come on, you know, I look back now and it's like all right, these, all the signs are here that I did not want to see. And you know, and I did. I walked down the aisle and with the wedding it was kind of like, okay, we've got to make this happen, a way to convince myself of what, you know, our relationship was. And um, and yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 8:13

What when it came to like, planning the wedding, or sex itself. What, um, what, what do you think the barriers were Like? What would it be like? You two didn't even think about it? Or if it came up, Was there conflict around it? Or was one person pushing for, the other person pulling away, Like what? What happened there on those? You know the day to day experience of that.

Amber Rae: 8:37

I mean on like a deep psychological level that I wasn't aware of at the time. I picked someone who was my friend, who I didn't necessarily desire in that way, I realized later, because I lost a father when I was young and I did not want to have to feel abandonment again, and so I chose partners that I thought A wouldn't leave me or B, if they left it wouldn't hurt as badly as if I did desire them, because I didn't want to feel the longing of wanting a father figure. You know, wanting that male love was something my little girl wanted so intensely. So I think I chose safe relationships in adulthood as a way of avoiding that pain again.

Amber Rae: 9:29

But like, so that's like the the bigger thing but on a day-to-day level, like I think you know, and I I am, I'm like what's going?

Amber Rae: 9:33

on for him because it's not like we were. There were. I write about one, one story in the book, but there was a, you know, but in in the majority of the relationship, we weren't like trying to initiate rejecting the other person. We were just not initiating Um, and so you know, I don't know for me that made it safe for me in some ways. Um, but there was one instance where I, like you know, had a few glasses of wine and I was like, okay, I'm going to like make a move. And of wine. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna like make a move.

Amber Rae: 10:09

And um, and he totally shut down, kind of like, pushed me away, kissed me on the forehead and went and started working and I like went in there and I was like, listen, like, are we, are you gonna like? And this was, this was right before we moved to Mexico, this is, like you know, in the last maybe year of our marriage or of our relationship and I was like, are you gonna make love? Are we love? Are you going to like do work right now? And he was kind of like, uh, I have a lot to do for tomorrow. So, you know, I think, um, yeah, there were, there were clearly some. There was clearly disconnection there.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 10:40

Was this a pattern for you, kind of safe relationship after safe relationship? Often when we hear about patterns it's more like unsafe relationship after unsafe relationship. But the safety is in never having to grapple with that long term commitment, never having to be truly vulnerable, let yourself be seen. This feels like a different kind of thing and it's interesting to me.

Amber Rae: 11:01

I swung both ways. I swung both ways.

Amber Rae: 11:11

I, you know, I think my first boyfriend was very safe, and then I went to college and had another safe boyfriend and I was like, oh, maybe I can like go after this guy that I really want, that if he chooses me, then I'll believe I'm worthy of love. And then I made that decision and it blew up in my face. And then I tried that again and it blew up in my face and then I tried that again and it blew up in my face and then I was like, oh, this is too scary. But you know, I don't think commitment wasn't the fear for me, I think losing love was the fear. And so, but after these kind of experiences of going after what felt like attraction and desire but not necessarily emotional safety, what felt like attraction and desire but not necessarily emotional safety, I then I think I swung really far into okay, I'm just going into the friend zone.

Amber Rae: 11:50

I can't, my nervous system can't tolerate what comes up when I go after a partner I desire. It's way too dysregulating. I can't make anything happen in my career and in the times when I did go after desire, I like was abandoned, or that was my story. I was, you know, I dated a guy for a year and then he like ghosted me after a year and I was like what, and so it was too painful, and so I was like oh, I'm not doing that again. This, this is what happens when I go after men. I really desire.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 12:20

Yeah, yeah, when you were with your ex and you were saying making it work, what, what, what were the stories that you were telling yourself? Like, when you're saying it, it might have been me, it might have been like what was, what was the? What were you? How were you explaining, like, why aren't we having sex? Why isn't this connecting? Connecting, yeah, you know, I think it was there was I should be grateful.

Amber Rae: 12:46

There's a lot that's working here. I it was also a time in my career where I was really thriving and so I was like I'm you know. But she was just asking what were the stories I was telling myself. Yeah, I should be more grateful. We can figure this out. We have a lot. That's good. It should be good enough. Like you know, your partner should be your best friend, which is advice I've been given After. You know relationships kind of sizzled out over time this is what happens when you get comfortable with each other. You know relationships kind of sizzled out over time this is what happens when you get comfortable with each other. So it was just kind of like maybe this is, and I didn't have any role models for good love and so I didn't really know what was like. Is this right? And you know I would talk to friends. I was like, well, they're kind of not having that much sex either.

Amber Rae: 13:40

You know they're five years in, you know, and maybe it's once a quarter, and so like maybe this isn't that crazy, maybe this is what happened. So I just kind of believed that it was the norm and there was enough working to be and to be grateful for that. Like why should I, why should I want more?

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 13:59

I am. I remember in my last relationship I had built up romance to be the most magical thing ever that would like bring you to a higher plane of happiness and existence. And I think you know me repeatedly not finding that in partners would lead to me kind of cutting and running. And then my last partner showed a ton of interest in me and investment in me and even though he had a lot of bad stuff, I was like I can't let this go, obviously because so many people don't get that, so many people have these kind of absentee husbands. And I remember I remember like laying on my parents couch and deciding to mourn my previous idea of what love was and just say I guess this is it, like this is probably as good as it's going to get and there's something wrong with me that isn't able to appreciate it more. But you know, I'm just gonna, I'm going to try to accept this for what it is. That sounds like that was sort of maybe part of your experience, I don't know.

Amber Rae: 14:57

Yeah, I think acceptance is a big piece and it's, it's. I am getting so many messages from women right now. Um, I feel guilty wanting more and I think it's so interesting. Or, you know, we're not that intimate or I don't feel that connected to him, but he's good to my kids, even though he's, you know not, I don't feel closeness with him, like, should I feel guilty wanting more? And, and I think we do like, as a way to persevere, we accept, we like accept what is, um, and you know, but what I'm hearing you say is that you, you had to, yeah, you had to accept that. That's just the way that you thought love was going to be. And I'm curious, though, like what, what, what for you, if you were accepting this like old story of love, what then brought in this, this more expanded version? Because you said you had to like kind of accept, and I so, but it sounds like you've now expanded into something different. What, what shifted for you to expand into that new story?

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:02

um, my my partner treated me really badly in certain ways and I've told this like story on the podcast a lot, but he part of what part of what I was accepting was that I was kind of his mother in an emotional sense and I was also his captive in another sense and um.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 16:20

I that kills romantic love, right, like that kills sexual intimacy. But because I had always kind of been avoidant, I was like, oh, this is just what happens in relationships and this is just what happens for me. I rescued myself from that feeling in conjunction with my friends who were like his behavior is not okay. And it came time for me to get married and I had seen a lot of nasty divorces and I was like I basically there was this whole like it all blew up at one point and I got out of it. And then with my, I met my current fiance very quickly after, like three months after.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 17:00

And you know, I think actually some of the resignation I had in my previous relationship was helpful. I no longer idealized love to the same extent. I was able to come back down to earth a little bit, but Jason just gave me a sense of like freedom and authenticity and like in protection that I was finally in a place to really appreciate and actually like feel was romantic and like sexual energy for me. Um, yeah, so I I kind of thank my first part not him, but like that first relationship for freeing me from the idea that love had to be my big rescuer and that it had to be absolutely dazzling and like, oh my God, amazing, and put me in a position to really appreciate how love can be just lovely, just like lovely. Most of the time, and, yeah, and I don't know, I just I have much more of a sense of like peace and my mind is clear and I'm still attracted to him, and that was a mega, mega relief, yeah, but yeah, I would.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 18:09

I would, I would love to hear really relate to me. You looked into your future husband's eyes and saw what there? It sounds like you. You saw aliveness there. Um, what was this? I felt, yeah, what was the kind?

Amber Rae: 18:23

of unfolding. I felt a lot, ms Bair. It was like this I felt a connection that I'd honestly never felt before, which was electric but calm, and it was just this, this feeling of kind of hello again. And I think having felt the thing that was missing entirely from my nine-year relationship had me kind of wake up to oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like. And I didn't, you know, my first thought was, oh, maybe in another life, like I didn't think I was going to blow everything up for this stranger. But I was so taken by how that felt and how important that it felt to feel that sort of connection, and it kind of led to a curiosity and an awakening around like, OK, what's really going on in my marriage and why don't I feel that? And it just it became the mirror for me to look honestly and at my relationship and the stories I was telling myself about it.

Amber Rae: 19:28

And I can relate to a lot of what you're saying, jacqueline, because I really romanticize love and I, you know not having role models around love. I looked to romantic comedies and it was like sweeping gestures of love and you know, I think of even how my first husband proposed. It was like horses, sunset ATVs, climbing butterfly gardens. It was, you know these over the top our wedding. So over the top it was. It was kind of let's, let's. We didn't know how to do love so we had to, like, show love. And you know, in my, my relationship now it's so much more simple Keep proposed in our backyard after a meditation. Didn't need to be this whole thing because we knew that the love was there and the love was real.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:19

How do you for the, for people who are listening, who are in these relationships, maybe long-term, that they're not sure you know, they don't, they, it doesn't feel as, um, you know, maybe it doesn't, there's not, it's not that like electric butterflies all the time and, um, they, they might feel you know that energy with someone new.

Amber Rae: 20:46

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 20:47

How do you, how do you, piece apart? When is it like okay, it's really time to leave my current relationship or is it time to, you know, revamp what we have? Like? How do? The question people always ask is how do we know when to get out Right? How do we know that it's like the the relationship is broken, versus like this is new relationship energy? We have this like attraction to someone new which has its own feelings to it. Besides, for like someone that you're working on a long-term relationship with, right, it's so hard to tell.

Amber Rae: 21:21

Yeah, you know, I don't feel electric butterflies blooms, you know, in the same way with my husband. Now it's, it's evolved into something more stable, more sure, more um, more, more contained, I think, which is which is healthy. More contained, I think, which is healthy. I will say, if there's no world right now where I would notice or be attracted or feel that with anyone else because I feel so secure and met within the marriage that you know, I think, if someone, if you're feeling, you know, electric connection with someone else, that points to some insecurity within your current dynamic and something to look at. So you know, for me, when I did meet him, I was like oh, wow, yeah, there is something broken in this relationship and so I need to look honestly at that and I need to speak actually honestly to my. So I was very transparent and open and then began an open dialogue with my ex-partner, Um, while I was like trying to figure out my feelings and what was going on with John. It was, I mean, it was, it was crazy to be like holding both Um.

Amber Rae: 22:24

But you know, I think the advice to people like when to get out, is like, okay, my friend Vienna Farron, she's a, she's a therapist. She says sometimes the healing is in the going and sometimes the healing is in the staying, and it's important that we look at our relationships to endings and stains. And so you know, for example, I'm someone who tends to overstay People. Please harmonize. I don't want to disappoint or hurt people, so I'll hurt myself, I'll abandon myself without even realizing I'm abandoning myself because I don't want to let someone down. And so you know that overstaying pattern means I sustain and put up with, you know, behavior that may not feel great for me, because I almost, like, don't know better and I've been trained in tolerance, in a way, and instead of tolerating, I've realized the bad behavior of the disconnection or the lack of vulnerability or the lacks of sexual relationship. I realized that I had to tolerate the discomfort of someone being disappointed in me speaking my truth or in me acting on something that is right and true for me, even if they disapprove or disagree.

Amber Rae: 23:30

And so you know, I think for someone, if you're finding familiarity in that narrative, I'm always the one who who overstays, you know, I think, get curious about that. How is that showing up in the relationship? Is this an opportunity to voice a need to say hey, I feel really disconnected to you or, hey, this need is long gone. I'm not like I don't want to just be intimate, you know, once a year, twice a year, I it's very important to me. And then, like you can try to put the work into the relationship. And sometimes people can meet you there and sometimes they can't. And so you know, I think, um, esther Perel, at one point, you know, actually had a conversation with her, um, so jealous, and you know she said well, your marriage is over, do you like to begin a new one? And sometimes I think people can begin a new one and sometimes I think people can begin a new marriage within their marriage.

Amber Rae: 24:20

And I think sometimes growth means growing apart and you actually can't grow within that container and it just. You know, after nine years of efforting and also then becoming aware of my own unconscious patterns that had led me to choose this relationship, I realized that growth here means growing apart. And in a lot of ways I had like really tried to get some needs met and like had some things that were just like really did not like move, like could not handle that. There was no change around. And so you know it's such a personal decision, it's such a layered decision, it's such a nuanced decision and I think, uh, looking at the saying, the leaving, and really like connecting with that wise voice within you that knows, um, which I know can require a lot of. There's going to be a lot of fear. That gets the way of hearing that intuition, a lot of anxiety.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 25:17

Um are some places to be gone yeah, I mean, I think that makes so much sense. I was thinking about my ex, my ex-husband, and that that was a whole saga, but it was really like a mind fuck in a way, because I kept being like we were having a hard time, we were disconnected in different areas, like he wasn't um, he wasn't working, he wasn't pursuing a job or really contributing to moving towards, like making a family, what I, what I dreamed of. And I kept thinking for years I was like you know, we're just going through a hard time, or we got to work on it, or marriage is hard and you can't get everything you want. And I do like I don't regret. Like, looking back, I was like, oh, I wish I held my standards higher or something.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 26:09

But like back then you don't know Right, you don't know what you have to sacrifice, because, like, not one person can't be everything right, like there are parts of a relationship that are going to feel not perfect or connected, and I do believe that some people can come back from that and start anew in their relationship and it it was kind of strange to be like, okay, how much longer do I wait for this to transform or get out Like, is it? You know, am I? Am I just shortchanging it and not giving this a chance to reach the potential it can be, or should I have gotten out in the beginning? And it's just that part going back and forth in that was so hard, it took so long.

Amber Rae: 26:57

Yeah, yeah, I mean I I had dinner with one of my best friends recently and she was like, oh, amber, you were asking questions for you and I was like I was Tell me, you know, and she's like you were, you would you'd like sit on your couch and have a glass of wine and you'd be like, is it weird that we don't really have sex? Or like I don't really, you know, she's like you had a lot of like. There was a whole doubt, dialogue going on for many years. So it's you know, and I, I think part of.

Amber Rae: 27:26

We live in a culture that tells us to stay no matter what. Stay for the kids. Figure it out. Like marriage is hard. You make it work, and so I think there's an opportunity to like like I don't regret those nine years. I don't wish that I go back and think I maybe should have left earlier, because that's how my story unfolded. You know, I'm the mother of a nine month old who now exists because of the perfect timing of everything, and I look at him and I'm like you're so meant to be my son, you know.

Amber Rae: 27:51

But I do think if we can take the shame away from leaving and like instead, be like, okay, this relationship is complete. Let's celebrate that. Like wow, like what? Like look at what you were able to accomplish in the container of this love. Like whether that's just like healing old wounds or identifying patterns. Like we only learn through experience. Clarity comes through action, like you know, and and we get wounded in relationships, so we have to heal in relationships and so you know, I think the idea that we have to be with one person forever is often what can stifle us and hold us back and think that like it's bad or shameful if we have to leave, it's like no, celebrate it. You grew as a person. Bad or shameful if we have to leave, it's like no, celebrate it. You grew as a person. You're now more aware and now you get to step into a life where you know you find someone who's a better fit for you now, at this moment.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 28:45

The stigma around divorce is interesting because it's accepted fact that in order to get married, we have to date, and usually those relationships are short term. But suddenly, if marriage or a relationship is nine years and then it ends that scene as a failure instead of like you guys made it nine years, oh my gosh, like that's a lot more work and a lot more success than the two-year relationship, right? It just happens to have this word marriage appended to it and like potentially a legal document. One of the ways that I oh, I'm under God.

Amber Rae: 29:17

You're what it's the vows under god. Right as I, I've been telling my story more publicly. There's, you know, a lot of people saying that I I am satan and I'm deaf because I made vows under god, and to to break those vows is the is the ultimate. Like you're satan, satan kitty, we're interviewing Satan.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 29:40

How fucking cool is that? I mean pretty cool, but also there's a lot of Satan going around. If we just tie that to like oh, half the marriage. I mean the Coldplay concert, I mean, come on, you know. I mean there's so many people who leave their marriage. What are you talking about? It's more than half.

Amber Rae: 29:57

All right was like okay, but these, the people in this comment section, is why people stay in things that they've long outgrown I, I wanna yeah, I do want to ask you about that in just a second.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 30:08

One of the ways that I knew that jason was right for me was and this has become like accepted kind of instagram therapist speak. But my body definitely knew before I was willing to speak it or to act on it. Like I in my relationship with my ex, I couldn't take a full in breath. It was like there was a cap on my breath and I I went on Lex, like I went on an SSRI to calm the anxiety, and I just chalked it up to oh, this is my like avoidant attachment style, which I didn't, I don't even think I had, but I just chalked it up to oh, this is my like avoidant attachment style, which I didn't, I don't even think I had, but I was like this is just me struggling to stay committed, when in fact, I think I had just met many men who were not the right one and my body was like they're not the right dude, get out.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 30:59

And then I met Jason and like, yeah, sure, there were butterflies and all of that, but I think more than that, my body is just relaxed, like when I am with him I feel safest, most joyful most. At peace I can breathe the fullest. Did you have that experience at all Over nine years? It's a little different.

Amber Rae: 31:10

I mean I felt safe with him in a way that one feels safe with a friend, but there was a lot that I there was a lot of like holding my breath, like feeling you know, there my body was definitely communicating with me. I was breaking out in rashes, oh, um, I had eczema and rashes that when I left my marriage completely went away, and so I feel like my body was definitely trying to get my attention and say like this isn't it? And you're not listening, and I can relate to like just the yeah, the sense of peace, the nervous system that feels so safe and at peace. Like now and I mean honestly it was. Sometimes I'm like, oh, this sounds like.

Amber Rae: 31:52

When I looked into his eyes I knew he was my person, like my body and my intuition were like there he is, he's the father of your children, like let's go. Maybe you're going to blow up your life. Come on, what are you waiting for? Like that was like truth speaking. But then, of course, fear was like you're psycho, he's a stranger, everyone will hate you, you're going to be shamed. You're like here are all the reasons why this is inconvenient and terrible timing. And like you know, yada, yada, yada. But like body, knew and you know. Eventually took me about six weeks, but I listened to my body.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:27

It's, it's crazy, like the wisdom of our bodies. I mean, maybe they did. Yeah, we just got to pay attention to that so much more because there's just like such crazy rates of like GI problems, hormone imbalances, all these things that women are struggling with. And yet, like the three of us have had experiences where our bodies were like nope and our minds were like just we're going to make this work body, come on, you know, get, get, get going have sex.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 32:54

And I couldn't get pregnant with my ex husband. We tried for two years and then, as soon as I got with my current husband, we got pregnant almost immediately. So it just our bodies just know, and I'm curious, what you're, the, what I call the, the, the curtain, pulling the curtain experience, where you have that moment of clarity and then you're like like looking back on everything and it just is like one of those clarifying experience where you have that moment of clarity and then you're like like looking back on everything and it just is like one of those clarifying moments where you see the matrix code or you see like pull the curtain back.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 33:24

Well, tell us, like the, what that was like. Like that day, what did you do, like did you have conversations with your? Did you go back and say something to him, like what happened? What happened when the curtain was pulled for you?

Amber Rae: 33:40

I mean so that I mean that night. So the day I met John, he was with two friends, but it was a this meeting. He just tagged along for it and they were supposed to be there for an hour and five and a half or six hours later they leave. And when they left I turned to my then husband. I said I just met a soulmate leave. And when they left I turned to my then husband. I said I just been soulmate. It was like, oh my god, he was there. Oh yeah, oh yeah, my my husband was there. When I met my now husband, they were there for the moment together. Did he see it? Did he go? Oh well, he like later said the moment he saw us see each other, he knew our marriage was over.

Amber Rae: 34:14

Um, wow which I think goes to show that we both knew the marriage had been long over. And it wasn't him, he was just the catalyst for what was already there. But yeah, I like I, the energy was or the, the connection was so palpable between him and I that it's so undeniable that I and I wasn't like and now I'm gonna blow everything up and leave you and blah, blah, blah. I was just like I just met a soulmate, like I was like, almost like because he was, because of I don't know, it was like I couldn't not say it and he, in what he said I'll never forget. He said I saw that was beautiful to witness and I think there was real like beauty and surrender in in that and like truth and like I actually think he thought it was beautiful.

Amber Rae: 35:04

Um, because I, you know, and there was, we went for a roller coaster of emotions, but I do think my ex, he wanted, you know, he was committed to unconditional love and he wanted, we both wanted each other to experience, you know, a depth of connection and I, you know, there was a moment a few weeks later where he came to me. He's like I feel like I met my John, I just like had this experience with this woman. I had my hand on her thigh and I thought, oh my God, if you walk in the room and I'd be terrified, and I like, as he's telling me this, I was like I'm so happy for you, I want you to experience that, and I don't mean it to be me, you know. And so it was like it was such a wild moment of us like just kind of discovering and being honest together. And you know, there were a lot of like.

Amber Rae: 35:51

So what was crazy is that, because I was like, oh well, john can't be my life partner. I then made him my creative partner in the project with my husband, so the three of us were then collaborating on a project together. I mean it was like it's crazy, that's awesome. Did they get along? They did, and like the three of us together had like really like we were making all these things happen and people were wanting to invest, and like artists, and like it was just like things were, things were flowing, um, and then, like we all kind of began naming what's true together. Very strange experience, wow.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:26

That's so cool and that's so, so respectful. Have you, have you guys seen um? You've got mail that old wrote romantic comedy with um Tom Hanks and um Meg?

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 36:38

You're shaking your head, meg Ryan? No, I thought I had, but I have seen it, of course, right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 36:43

This is like a classic. There was a moment where she's like with Greg Kinnear and you know she's falling in love with Tom Hanks over email, over like pen pal email and then they go out to dinner and they go. There's this beautiful moment where they're starting to talk and she was like wait a minute, you don't love me. And he goes and she says I don't love you either. And then they just start talking about who they might be in love with otherwise and it just sometimes it's just like that's the dream that you've got where it's like this you don't have. I mean, I'm sure it's painful, I'm sure it was painful for many reasons, but it's for the change and the transition. But it's so beautiful that all of you could just recognize that this is, this was just. You know, it's nothing personal or it doesn't mean anything bad about him, it just. This is bigger than either any of three of you. Yeah, yeah, Wow.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 37:43

What, what was, uh? What was John's reaction when he looked into your eyes? I mean, was this felt on both sides?

Amber Rae: 37:50

Yeah, it was, and I didn't know that initially, um, I thought I was just experiencing something, um, but he later told me that he because and he saw, he saw me walk towards a green, this blue, flowy dress, and he saw me walk toward their car, and so he spotted me before I spotted him and kind of had a feeling of like and in he was you know, he was he's like. It wasn't like a sexual charge, like heat energy, it was like this, like calm, like whoa, like this, what is this? So, yeah, he did have the same experience as I did. That's fucking cool.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 38:25

Yeah, I am really struck by your ex's reaction and your reaction to him, where we it's like we're trained to expect that if we aren't meant to be together then there has to be this, like you know, rejection and abandonment and our ego has to be hurt. And you, I know before you met John, you were very into the wellness space and kind of the intention, integrity, kind of messages, and I guess if you were business partners you must've been as well. Did your kind of philosophies, life philosophies, help lend itself to this or?

Amber Rae: 39:00

we were recent business partners. We hadn't been. This was just we were building a slam party. But yeah, I think something that united us for sure was like our. We wanted to live in a world where every person could be their highest true self, and so so, and we I remember we were reading the book the Surrender Experiment when this all went down. So I do think, you know, we were in a place where there was like an openness and receptivity, a sense of surrender, a sense of trust, not to say that like ego rejection, abandonment, like those things weren't felt or experienced along the way, because there were, you know, all kinds of.

Amber Rae: 39:37

You know, at one point my then husband tracks down John at a coffee shop. It's like are you falling in love with my wife? You know, like there was, there was definitely drama. I know it's all in the book, but like it, at least it was open. You know there was no. And I think, in in some way, the three of us didn't know what was going to happen, but we knew that if we voiced our truth, that was going to align us all to the right thing, even if we didn't know what it was yet. Like I didn't know if John was the great catalyst for me to leave this marriage, that I needed to leave um, or if he was going to be the great love of my life, Didn't know. I just knew that, like I'm voicing what's true as it's unfolding, and I'm going to trust that that's going to take me where I need to go.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 40:26

So what happened next? What happened next? So you, you all, start working together as um three business partners. And then did you admit something to John, did you leave your marriage for like how?

Amber Rae: 40:37

We, john and I, went on a little. We were looking at land and we were like doing a, because he we went to just like a furniture studio and we're looking at design pieces, and because I was going to make him my creative partner and he was going to invest in this project, I said to him, like okay, I just I can't leave this unsaid. I just need to voice that the night I met you, I like felt this really strong connection. Am I crazy? Am I making this up? And there were so many like there were so many synchronicities happening and serendipities happening that like I couldn't even include them all in the book because it would make it sound like a very cheesy love story. It was like like too many shooting stars, you know. Like it was like the universe was like pay attention, you know. And so he then said to me um, and I bring that up because there's this like moment, but it's too long to explain. He then says to me no, I'm, you're not making this up and I'm so glad you said something, because I did.

Amber Rae: 41:31

I had this feeling of I've just met my soulmate and he's like, and I'll be honest, I like went, went back to my friend's house that night and told my friend, you know, like why is the universe showing me this person who's like so clearly meant to be my person, but he's not available? And you know what he? What? He interpreted that as okay. Well, I guess she's showing me like the type of person that I'm going to call in. And this is actually teaching you what unconditional love looks like, because I know that I love her and I like, like I just want so much goodness for this person, but I don't need to possess her. Maybe the lesson here is like love without possession, um and so, you know, and then I was like, okay, you know.

Amber Rae: 42:14

And then like, okay, let's do this. And then I, you know, I think we, we tried. And then I was like, oh no, there there's, there's real feelings here. I also think he thought this woman's in a happy marriage and was not available. So, like you know, and then I think, once he started to realize, wait, maybe this isn't quite what I thought it was, and I started to be like, as we all kind of walked down this road together and as my ex was kind of like, actually, you guys, hanging out is really helpful I realized I've been vetting myself and, like you, taking care of her emotional needs and, like you know, I'm like get to go do more work and I really liked it.

Amber Rae: 42:48

So it was just like a crazy, crazy series of events. A crazy, crazy series of events. And are you still in contact with your ex? We, um, you know, like that he's now he remarried. Um, he's now actually the land has become their thing, um, down in mexico. Um, we, you know the? I got flowers when my son was born, you know things like that, not thrilled about the book.

Amber Rae: 43:18

Okay, I'll be honest, I was wondering and, like you know, I told him I'm going to write a book about this and he was like, of course, you're going to write a book about this. I like, I know who I married, like, why, duh? And then, I think, when it came time to the book coming out, and you know perhaps, he said that when he wasn't in a relationship and now he's marrying as a new person. Um, and he is a main character in the memoir, greg, he's not named. You can't even like Google and find anything. So I like, you know I've, I've left, you know, so it's, he's just, you know, a man in a story, um, and this has been part of my work of being like okay, he disapproves of me doing this.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 43:57

This person that I like nine years of my life with, that I like care about, disapproves, but this is my story and this is my truth and I have to tell it, and so I had to be like, okay, I have to tolerate that discomfort well I remember I I might misremember this, but I I feel like I remember a post where you admitted on social media that you'd met somebody new and that your relationship was over, and I, I remember I don't know if it if you were acknowledging that, maybe people would judge you, or there seemed to be something a little bit nervous about the post. Yeah, um, I don't know if that's true or if it was me being like is this? Is there a new dude?

Amber Rae: 44:35

what happened to the old one, but I mentioned that the marriage was over and I was definitely nervous okay, you got those things right.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 44:45

what was that? I mean I've I, you know, I have a fraction of the followers you do, but it was on, you know, reality and so it got like tons of the internet hate and all that. So I know how terrifying it is to break the news about something on the internet and especially, you know, with your life, where mine, you know mine came from a reality TV which is messy and they expect us to fuck up and, you know, make disastrous choices. Yours was much more like positive and inspirational and all this. And so talking about a divorce, I mean, satan's divorce must have been really scary for you. So what, what was that like?

Amber Rae: 45:22

Well, I will say, initially people were very because this was a couple of years ago. This is, I didn't. I was, you know. I said I left my marriage and I I can't remember the exact details, but I basically no, actually maybe I did say oh no, I came out in the post saying that I was with someone new. I left out the detail that I'd met him while married. In that post, um, and I think that was more because I realized, like, as someone who has kind of told the truth about their life on the internet for a long time, I realized that, like I don't have to, I can share, I can be discerning when I share it, because our relationship was new and I get to protect what's ours and, like you know, there will come a time where I want to tell the whole story and I wasn't ready to tell the whole story yet, um, but there was definitely like definitely fear of judgment around how quickly I moved on.

Amber Rae: 46:12

You know all that. But I remember being very nervous posting it, but it was also. I felt deeply relieved and at peace because it was my truth and the you know I felt fair, my community came and was incredibly supportive and so I haven't really gotten all the backlash until now that I'm telling the full story and I'm glad because I've had the time. You know, I think when something triggers me, um, you know people are like how dare you leave your marriage for another man? That doesn't trigger me. Now it used to trigger me because I shamed myself for doing that.

Amber Rae: 46:52

And so I had to work through my own shame about my story. So now when people have thoughts like because I've worked through it and I like have you know realized that like life happens, I, you know this is just happened to be the way that my story unfolded and like why you know kind of who cares, you know know it's, I'm not as triggered by the backlash. If that makes sense, that's great. Yeah, it's like it's all in me, it's all like a okay, something's really upsetting me. Someone did recently say, um, like I wonder how your ex feels about this, and that one got me because I was like, oh yeah, I do kind of feel bad. You know this is, can't you know, being the character in someone else's memoir, even though you're not named and no one knows. Most of the world won't know who you are. I can imagine it would be an uncomfortable experience. So I like I had to look at that and be like okay.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 47:42

Yeah, that is the writer's dilemma, always, I feel.

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 47:47

Absolutely Well, tell us about the process of writing this book. I mean, you know, tell us about the process of writing this book. I mean, you know, tell, tell us the title again. But what was it like to write about all of this and process it, reflect on it in this particular and be be open about it in public? Did you say? Say the title again Also? Yeah, just just for if anyone forgot what it's called.

Amber Rae: 48:09

Lovable is the title. I mean the writing. As a writer, writing is the space of healing, cathis transformation. It's. You know, when you put pen to paper, there is something really powerful and sacred that can happen. It's it's like an elkin process of alchemy, and I teach a lot of writing workshops and my process is always like first I, I write the bad draft, which is just like get it down, it doesn't need to be great.

Amber Rae: 48:36

Trying to write a great piece of writing is only going to get you to not write at all. And then my second draft is what I call the brave draft. And the brave draft is where I go in and I say where can I be more honest? What truth am I not saying? How can I have this be, you know, the most honest depiction of what was happening inside of me and what you know, what was happening in that moment? And I always say write like no one will read it.

Amber Rae: 49:01

And this is, I think, the most essential thing, because when we have other people, what will he think? What will my mom think if I share this story? Is he going to be uncomfortable being featured in my memoir? If those questions are in the writing room, we're not going to get good stuff on the page, so I had to write the first draft and tell the story exactly as I needed to tell it. My John, my husband, did not read the book until it was done, and that's I didn't even want. Even though he was a participant in the story and knew he was going to be featured in this book, I didn't want to write the book that I thought he would like and want to read.

Amber Rae: 49:40

He also has a different literary taste than me.

Amber Rae: 49:43

I wanted to write the book that I needed to write and so, and you know, and it was connected, the writing the book helped me, like, connect the dots of my past and like under, like I didn't even realize my stepfather was abusive until I was writing the book and I was like, oh my God, that was abusive and oh my God, that's why that happened. So it's like, you know, writing can be this powerful healing process for us and we need to have the space to really experience that feeling. And if we're editing our story, then we can't look honestly at our story and so much of healing comes through being able to see our stories accurately. So that's, you know, that's really what the process was. And then I think you know, once you've written the truest thing on that you can possibly write, then you can go back and be like, is that story necessary? Like, do I need to bring in more compassion for my mom? Do I? You know, like, whatever, whatever those questions are, and so, like, the edit is where you can take things out.

Amber Rae: 50:37

Um, but, you gotta write first, like no one's going to.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:44

I need to take one of your workshops because I used to be a huge writer and I've felt blocked for so long now we will unblock you.

Amber Rae: 50:51

I am okay, I queen of unblocking.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 50:54

Oh, that's what I need. That would be amazing. All right, well Kivi. Any last questions?

Dr. Kibby McMahon: 51:02

No, this has been fascinating. I'm just like just getting to know you, but so happy that you've had this. You know, like it's just such a there's so many people who just feel imprisoned in their relationship and I I do. I do see there's two sides of it. There are, there are people who are just like if you're in a toxic relationship, bad relationship, get out and there's something to be said for, um, that other side which is just like, hey, I've, I've been through, I have a really bad model of love and security and safety and these other things were important to me. I just didn't, I just like it was scary to let go of, to shoot for something else, right? So I also want to say that it's hard for people who feel stuck in a relationship to say you know like there are reasons why you're in what you're in, but then how do you know whether, when, to like step off into the great unknown and and give yourself shots? So I'm just it's been amazing to hear the story and that it worked out so beautifully.

Amber Rae: 52:08

Thank you. Yeah, this conversation has been a lot of fun.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:12

All right. Well, when does Lovable hit the shelves?

Amber Rae: 52:16

Lovable is out in the world August 5th, available everywhere books are sold, so I don't know when this is going live, but in a week and you can, yeah, buy it anywhere books are sold. You can follow me on Instagram, heyamberray, and my website. Amber Ray has all the goodies, all the writing workshops, all the things.

Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:36

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Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 52:55

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Dr.Jacqueline Trumbull: 53:18

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