Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey little helpers, it's Dr. Kibbe here. Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you love. Coolamine is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs, or setting boundaries. Even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to kulamind.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com and click get started. Thank you and enjoy the show. Welcome back, little helpers. Today I'm going to talk about how you can get through to someone when things get heated. So how to break out of back and forth conflicts that don't really go anywhere. Um, how to calm down and actually get on the same page. So it's a stressful topic, but I'm actually really happy to be out here in upstate New York in a lodge with this amazing background of mountains. Maybe you can see in the background. So anyone watching on YouTube will get this lovely view. So you're checking this out on YouTube, it's really beautiful. Uh so kulamind, we've been talking a lot about what to do when you're always butting heads with someone you're close to. So if you have someone in your life who is struggling with emotions or their mental health, fights are really common, right? Like, even though you're trying to help, there might be some just you might be deadlocked on certain topics. Like they might think that your tone of voice or the way that you're telling them to go to therapy makes them feel really judged. And they scream and they lash out and they say no, right? And then you're, you find yourself like in a heated debate every single time. And I've been talking to people a lot about what to do when you just feel like whenever there's like a certain topic comes up or there's a trigger that comes up, it's just deadlock where you can't see eye to eye. You want to get on the same page so you can move forward, but both sides are just like you and that other person are just stuck in the way you're seeing it and cannot move forward, cannot get on the same page, cannot collaborate on what to do next. I'm hearing this a lot when it comes to talking to loved ones about getting help or their mental health symptoms. Like hearing a lot when it comes to telling your child or your partner, hey, I think your drinking is kind of out of control. You know, I, you know, I think that you're drinking a little bit too much, or I think this is affecting your mood. You know, I think you should cut back or get help. And the other person goes, no, it's not that problem, and leave me alone, and everything like that. And no matter what, that topic comes up of drinking or their mental health, it just, it just collapses. It just doesn't go anywhere. And so it's tough because often those are really important topics, but then people just learn to just avoid it. They're like, there's no way that I can make any movement here, and it just makes things worse. So I just won't talk about it. And that's where resentment builds, right? Where you just have all these elephants in the room where you feel like you can't even touch it because it's just too hot. You have to touch it with a poker. I've also heard people talk a lot about this in response to my last episode that I talked about projection. So often someone can read something into and interpret your actions, your communication, your behavior in a certain way. And they might be upset about it, right? And then when they get upset about it, we might respond like, no, I didn't mean that, or here's why I did that. Here's why it isn't bad. But then you just you don't see eye to eye, you can't get past it. It just evolves in a huge fight. Common thing that I have with my mom about that is whenever I say no, you know, to something that she's asking, right? Like um being able to visit or see my child, and I say no, she interprets that as punishment or that I'm doing something against her, right? She kind of reads this kind of hostility in that. And every time when she says, like, why are you punishing me? What why are you doing this to me? There's it feels like there's nothing I can say to make her feel better or to like see my side, right? Which is just like, no, it's just inconvenient. It's not about you, it's not about a relationship. I just say no for another reason. Right. She's reading this like hostility from me, this like, you know, me pushing her away or punishing her when I don't have that intention. And the back and forth is like, wait a minute. She is upset because the way she's interpreting my no, like why I say no. So I will make her feel better by clarifying that that's not what I meant, right? Like that'll make her feel better to tell her that she's wrong. And then always that just gets a deadlock because the more I try to clarify and argue and defend my side, the worse the fight gets. And I'm just like, what? Like, what do you do? What do you do? And this is just, it's such a hot, a hot topic when you're dealing with someone with mental illness, because sometimes what they're struggling with is more than just you or that moment or just that topic. It's almost like you you're touching the tip of the iceberg, and then you're there's a whole like mountain underneath it, right? There's all this pain, all this struggle that it might be sparked by that one conversation, but it just feels like this impasse, right? So I think like I'm thinking about what strategies can we use when you feel like there's an emotional impasse, when a topic just leads to shutdown and explosion and doesn't move forward. I would say that if you feel like you are stuck in a back and forth impasse, a deadlock with someone you love, where every time you talk about something, it blows up. I would say the first, actually, the first strategy is to think to yourself, what is my goal here? I say that with every type of conflict where emotions can take over so quickly. So even before we get there, even before you bring up the conversation, think to yourself, what do I want to get out of this? What is the most important thing? I know that we have a lot of different goals, like I want to be heard, I want us to get closer, I want them to get therapy, I want them to calm down and see that I love them, right? There's a lot of goals. But sometimes before like a hot topic is brought up, you think to yourself, okay, if there's one thing that I accomplish with this conversation, what would that be? Right? It could just be like, you know what? If I just can, you know, if they can open up the idea to get help for their drinking, and they might hate me, it might be ugly, it might be difficult, but if they are willing to just look into detox centers, I'm happy. Or it could be like, you know, the holidays are coming up. I don't care if my dad sees my perspective on politics. I just want the actual Christmas day and the gift unwrapping to be smooth as possible for the kids, right? Like, of course, you would want to all come together and share opinions and have a lovely, lovely Christmas and it'd be picture perfect. But in those kind of situations, the best thing to do is pause yourself and think if there's one thing, one outcome that I could shoot for, it'd be this, right? And just focus on that. And grieve and let go of the rest because we can only do one thing at a time. So think about your goal will be the first strategy. The main strategy that is so, so helpful is validation. And I know that on this podcast, we've talked about validation a lot. We've had episodes on it, almost every episode about like how to deal with your loved ones struggling mental health. We always say validate, validate, right? Um, but then it's actually a lot harder to put into practice. It's a it's a very simple skill that is so hard to master, especially in high-intensity situations with high drama, lots of anger, lots of overwhelm, is and or feeling attacked, right? It's so hard to validate someone else. So let me just let me just clarify what validation is. Like a step-by-step, here is what validation is. Validation is communicating to someone that you understand their emotional experience. Okay. So you see and recognize what they're feeling, and you communicate to them that it makes sense. There's logic behind it. I kind of get your perspective. So it's basically empathy plus communicating that empathy, right? Um I know that sounds so simple. Like I say it all the time, and people go like nodding them. So here's another way to think about it. I love this book. I'm holding it up so you can see it in YouTube, but it's it's one of my favorite books for emotional intelligence. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. So this is actually a book about negotiation. Chris Voss is an expert in negotiating in hostage situations, right? When a terrorist has taken someone for ransom and you have to negotiate them to uh the FBI has to negotiate with them in order to um keep that person safe, right? So I love that you can we can get so much of how do you talk someone down from the ledge, so to speak, when emotions run high, when you have to get on the same page, when you have to influence what's going on. You can't, you you, I mean, he's talking about situations that are so high emotional tensity, so stressful, and yet the outcome is really important, right? Keep that hot hostage safe. You can't just like argue and walk away. You have to get you have to get on the same page and influence a situation, get control. So even he says that one of his favorite strategies, it's called tactical empathy, which I think it's another word for validation. And this is his definition. He's basically saying an academic way of saying that empathy is paying attention to another human being, asking what they're feeling, and making a commitment to understanding their world. I love that definition. Making a commitment to understanding their world. Okay. And so his definition is tactical empathy is understanding the feelings and mindset of another in a moment, and also hearing what is behind those feelings so that you can increase your influence in all the moments that follow. Whoa. Okay. So even if the idea of validating someone who's screaming at you sounds like ridiculous, even in hostage negotiation situations, tactical empathy or validation, whatever you want to call it, is a key skill. I'll tell you why. So there's actually such a cool study showing that um when you validate someone else and when you validate their feelings, it actually brings down their emotion. It actually helps people calm down. So if someone is at a 10 out of 10 angry and you validate their emotion, their anger, and maybe what's underneath the hurt and the other emotions and feelings behind what's going on with anger, then there's actually evidence showing that heart rate goes down, skin conductance goes down, meaning that they're less sweaty. So physiologically, emotions get calmer and are soothed when you validate. Whoa. To our knowledge, validation is the only skill that we have to regulate someone else's emotions. And I'll say that again. As psychologists and clinical scientists, we only know of one skill to regulate someone else's feelings. And that's validation. So saying, hey, I see your emotions, I see what you're feeling, and I understand why you're feeling it, it's the only thing that we can do to help someone else feel soothed, to help calm them down in that moment, to get a feeling of relief. Now, it doesn't shut down their emotion, right? It doesn't, you know, it doesn't get them to stop feeling things. But you know that, you know, that feeling when someone is at 10 out of 10 angry or overwhelmed, and it's almost like there's a wall around them, right? That like they're they're not hearing you, they're not, they're just like in fight or flight mode. There, you can't get through to them, right? They're arguing, they're defensive, validating their feelings and saying, hey, I see what you're feeling in it, and making a commitment to understanding your world. You get this feeling of relief. That wall comes down, that wall softens. They're they're still feeling that emotion, because emotions take time to work through, but they are more open to you, right? Empathy begets empathy. So when you calm down, when you feel seen and understood, you calm down and you're more open to what is this person in front of me saying? What is their feedback? All right. So there's actually a really cool study that I love by Schenck and colleagues in 2011 where they had people come in and do a hard math test or, you know, these kind of math problems. And they had an experimenter who was either randomized to invalidate their feelings or validate their feelings. And invalidation looks like, as you can imagine, treating that person's emotions as not real, uh, not understandable, not logical, wrong, invalid, right? So if you know, if people are doing these math problems, they're supposed to be very difficult and frustrating. And the experimenter comes comes over and says, Oh, why do you feel so stressed about this? This is easy. Other people are having an easier time. It's not a big deal. In that study, their emotions, their stress response got more intense when they were invalidated. So their skin conductance means they got more sweaty and their heart raced more. And so they're, and they they describe their experiences like more distressing and more unpleasant. So getting invalidated actually made their emotions more intense. On the opposite, when they got validated, when they said, when the experimenter came over and goes, oh gosh, you know, like it's okay and makes sense that you're stressed out and frustrated by these math problems. A lot of other people also feel this way. It's totally normal. It actually soothed distress, right? They, they, their heart rate went down, their skin conditions went down, they start to feel more calm. So biologically, this works. And I say that this is the only skill that we have to calm someone else down. You're like, wait a minute, what I tell my, you know, I tell people to like take a deep breath and calm down. I take a walk. Yes, you can walk someone through strategies that they can do to calm down. You could be like, hey, take a deep breath. And then you're instructing someone to regulate. But this is just like you're not having them do anything. You are just doing something to influence their emotions. Okay. It is so powerful. Is if you master it, if you're good at validation, doors open up. I really think that that is one of the most useful skills I've learned as a therapist. You know, all of my eight years of training to become a therapist, um, validation is one of my like my most valuable skills. And I can't always access it, right? I can't always do it right. There's certain situations where I can't actually apply validation skills and it is always backfired, it's always, especially in the situation with my mom. Um, but if you're able to just think of it logically and say, okay, if my outcome, if this helps me get to my goal, right? If this helps me get through Christmas with no fights or something like that, to keep the peace. Um, or if it's worth it to get that person to open up to the idea that they need treatment, they need help for their drinking, validation might be the key. It might be worth it. It might be worth dealing with their own feelings coming up and being like, okay, I'm just gonna use the validation skill right now, tactical empathy, seeing and communicating, understanding for what they're feeling. And I'll explain how that how we do that. But what it also does is not only help people calm themselves in the moment, but it actually helps that person slow down and identify and label their own emotions, right? Like we always say when emotions run high, name it to tame it. Meaning emotions get regulated when they're labeled, when you have a word for them, when you know what you're feeling, right? Like if I'm, I always use the the example of hunger. It's like if I'm hungry and I'm just feeling really intensely starving, I might feel kind of overwhelmed by it. And I'm just, oh, I'm gonna eat anything. But if I know what I'm hungry for, then it there's an even change in how I experience that hunger. I'm like, oh no, I'm actually really thirsty. Oh, and as soon as I label it, it's like, wow, I'm feeling that my mouth is dry and I'm I'm looking at all the glasses of water around me. It's like, oh, when you tune in to what you're really feeling and what you need, then it's easier to make sense of what you're feeling, right? It's a signal of thirst, not just general hunger or general feeling of need, right? So validating and saying, hey, I see what you're feeling, it makes sense. That's so organizing for people. So it really helps to break that wall down, to soften that wall in your back and forth fight, right? So instead of like butting heads, it's like, okay, I'm gonna bring down these walls here so we can move forward, we could change the conversation after this. Um, empathy and validation also enhances trust and closeness, right? And also influences how much influence you have over the situation. And I want to say fully like you can control or manipulate someone, but if you want, if you're like, I gotta get this person to do something, like a situation that I'm dealing with right now is that our son, who's a three-year-old, he just won't, he says no to everything. He's just every single thing. No, no, no, no. Every step. You don't know how frustrating it is, unless you have kids, to get through like a normal bedtime routine with someone actively resisting it. Someone like you're like, do you want to put on a diaper? No. You wanna put on a pajama shirt? No. You want to brush your teeth? No, no, no. You want to go to bed? No. And I just I have really low patience for this. My husband is way better at this, but I'm like, no, you gotta come on. Or I just kind of sit like let him win, right? It's either like I'm I'm trying to get him to do something, and if he says no, then I'm like, oh, fine, okay, I'll wait till he feels like it. But sometimes like we gotta get him to bed, right? He's gotta listen to me. So in those moments, validating and saying, Oh, I see that you're tired and frustrated, you know, it could go a long way because, or even really accurately labeling for a three-year-old is harder, but like that you want to play, you want control, you don't want me to leave, you're scared of the dark, right? The feelings that are actually leading to the no, if I'm able to validate that, it works amazing. The times that I've been like, he's like, no, I don't want to brush my teeth, I don't want to go to bed. And I, and if I go, come on, you gotta, right? It's just like, it's just gonna make us into back and forth, right? We're just polarized, we're butting heads, it's impasse. No, no, no. But if I'm able to say, like, hey, buddy, I understand you're tired, you're frustrated, you don't want to go to bed. And I also see that are you scared of the dark? Maybe you're scared of the dark, and you'll be like, Yeah. And then I see that he softens a little bit. He doesn't fully do what I say in that moment, but I could see that it changes uh his hard-headedness, right? It just like softens the stubbornness just a little bit. He has my kid, so he doesn't soften that much, which is unfortunate. So if when in doubt, if you feel like emotions are running high, or you're in in impasse and you're just like in deadlock, try validating. I know that seems weird because and whenever I mention this, it sounds easier. It's like, okay, great, yeah, whatever. But when you're in the heat of the moment and you are at odds with someone, it feels weird to validate their experience, to like say yes to something that they're telling you about their perspective. Some people feel like it is like if I validate their their feelings, um, it's gonna get worse. They're gonna feel like they're right and they're going to get even more upset. And I'm I'm just almost adding fuel to the fire. That is not what actually happens by science. Um even validating their emotions, even if in your mind you think they're wrong for feeling this. Um, like for example, if my son is like, no, no, no, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to go to bed. And I say, I say that you don't want to go to bed. I might be afraid that speaking that out loud or uh, you know, showing that you understand or acknowledge that might make it worse, right? And I was like, then he really won't go to bed. But actually, no, when someone feels seen and understood, actually they get a lot more flexible with it. They don't have to defend themselves and be the champion of that, right? They're like, oh, you see it too. So, you know, yeah, we could be a little more flexible. So it has this counterintuitive effect of actually opening someone up, right? And the reason why this works is social baseline theory. So Jim Cohn is a really cool researcher. Um, he's at the University of Virginia, I don't know where he is now, but he had this really cool studies about how human beings are so social that we share resources. Um, and we share resources and we have survived because we are so social. We have worked together. We've made cities, communities, civilizations. We're the most social primates out there, and we're able to survive through sharing the load, like being by each other's side. Um, he has such cool studies where uh two people, uh a subject, a participant will look at a mountain and the experimental will say, like, how how hard is it to climb that mountain? And that person will be like, Oh yeah, it looks really, really hard. And if you just have someone standing next to you looking at the same mountain, and if you ask them the same thing, like how hard is it to climb that mountain? Even just having someone next to you that you trust will change your physical perception of the mountain. You're like, oh, it's not that high, it's doable, I can walk it, right? I'm I'm summarizing this. I think the study was a little bit more like precise and quantitative than that. But the point is that if you feel like you have someone on your side helping you with a problem, that problem actually seems a lot less stressful and challenging, right? You have more resources when you have someone next to you seeing what you're seeing. So it's the difference between, like, if let's say I, you know, you point to someone and say, hey, climb this mountain, and they're like, it's really hard. And you're like, no, you just gotta climb the mountain is the best thing, right? That person's gonna be like, it's really hard. And they're gonna scream more and more the more they're invalidated. But if you stand next to them and say, Oh, I see, I could see, I understand why you would think that is a really hard mountain, a mountain to climb. Suddenly that person has someone else seeing the problem through their eyes. And then suddenly you go from like a person who's just standing over you and yelling at you like an adversary, to someone who is with you. And that automatically shifts your whole orientation to that person, right? Someone you're like, oh, this person's on my side, they're my team member. Now I have more resources, now I can handle anything. And I trust that that team member can see things from my perspective and understand what I'm dealing with here. So that's what validation is. And I'll kind of go through the steps of how to actually validate. Okay. So this is a breakdown of how to validate step by step, how to use tactical empathy step by step. The first step is find a part of someone's experience to validate. I usually just say emotions. Um, you could validate someone's thoughts, beliefs, opinions, actions, what they do. You could be like, yeah, I totally understand that um, you know, you're refusing to brush your teeth because, you know, you you want to play, right? Those are all validating the thoughts and behaviors, right? But emotional experience is going to be the biggest bang for your book. So saying, I get that you're feeling upset. I get, I see that you're feeling angry. Oh, you're furious. That makes sense. You feel so overwhelmed. Yeah, I could see why you think this is overwhelming. Right. So even labeling, you could just, if they have given you any emotions, any words to describe their emotions, you could just repeat it back. Right. If they're like, I'm done with this, you could be like, I get that you're done with this. I get that you feel done.

Right.

If they're not giving any emotions, you can ask. You, you know, they're like, ah, this situation and that situation, then you'd be like, what's going on? What do you what are you feeling right now? What does it make you, what does it bring up for you? And if they're like, Well, I just I'm just furious. And it's like, yeah, I get why you're furious. So try to label their emotion. Um don't say you feel this, but if you're not sure, you can say, like, it seems like you're upset with me, or it seems like you're really stressed out. Is that right? So you can actually turn this part into a question, like, what are you feeling? What is this emotion you're feeling? Okay, let's validate it. Let's, let's, let's make sense out of it, right? Um, and if they're like, no, that's not what I'm feeling, you just go with what they're feeling. I don't want to, I don't want to talk about it. Okay, makes sense, you don't want to talk about it. Right? So just meeting them where they're at. So find part of someone's experience to validate. And the second one is find the logic in it. Why does it make sense? It might not make sense to you, but why are they feeling that way? What came before and what is happening that is leading to this emotional reaction? Could be like, yeah, given your trauma history, of course you'd feel upset at the idea of uh being criticized, right? Or yeah, you're like running on no sleep. Of course you're tired, of course you're of course you're overwhelmed, right? Or an easy phrase to say is like given, yeah, yeah, it makes sense you're feeling this way, given what you're going through, right? Sometimes even just that is validating. Like if you know, I I talked to my Sister-in-law or my husband, and I'm like, oh, I'm I'm just I'm not feeling good. I don't know, blah blah blah. Like I'm feeling down, I'm feeling doubt, anxious, doubtful. And they might just have the bigger perspective to see see beyond my like in the moment emotion. Oh, yeah, given that you've been working so hard, or given that you're worried about this, or you just had a tough conversation, so you feel drained. Yeah, of course you'd be feeling like this. It's like, oh wow, you just helped me make sense of what I'm feeling, right? Commitment to understanding someone else's world. It's like they are committed to like seeing what what my experience emotional experience is and why it makes sense, right? It's a very logical um exercise because it actually is like, oh, emotions are not popping out of nowhere. It's actually a an understandable reaction to what just happened, why their belief system, their what they've been through before. So communicating your understanding with words, actions, don't you make you do this based on what is authentic to you and that person. And you got to do it genuinely. You can't be like, I understand why you're feeling this way, but you could be like, yeah, I get that you're feeling this because it seems really stressful. Or even just paying attention is validating, right? Like, what are you feeling? Like asking questions is also validating because again, it's making a commitment to understanding that person's world. What are you feeling right now? Why is it so hard? What about it hurts so much? And then you pay attention and reflect back what they're what they're telling you, say why their experiences make sense and be brief about it. I wouldn't say, I would say that it might not work as well if you go, yeah, I get that you have this going on and this going on and this going on, and then you know, we got into a fight last year, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Like you might know that, but you might be like, given all that you're going through and how hard this time is, I get why you're just saying no, no, no to me. I get that. I get why you're feeling like frustrated. All right. Be a little bit brief, but under but be understanding. Um, and another way to do it is like, you know, you gotta be vulnerable. You gotta match them where they are, right? Like you can validate with just your tone or your face. If some I do this all the time in therapy when I want to um, I want to hear more of what someone my patients are saying, and I don't want to interrupt them, but I also want to validate. I might like, this is within Zoom world, it really helps because it's just right on my face, but I just I will nod, I will make a face based on what feeling. Like if they're telling me a sad story, I'll, you know, I'll feel the sadness and I'll I'll have the sad face. And I might say, like, oh, mm-hmm. Yeah. Or if they're telling me an angry story, I'd be like, yeah, oh my God, what? You know, so I so even just affect matching, right? Just mimicking and showing I'm committing to understanding what you're feeling. I'm there with you, standing next to you, looking at that mountain. That could be validation. I don't know how to say much, be like, yeah, that makes sense. I get that, right? So those are the steps of validation and tactical empathy. One, find the target of what you're validating. Emotions are the best one. Two, find the logic at it. And three, communicating, showing that person that you understand, not just keeping in your head and being like, well, yeah, but you're wrong anyway. Just like they should know I'm on their side. No, actually say it. And you know it's working. I love, I love when Chris Voss says this. You know it's working when you get the magic words. That's right. So I love that in Never Split the Difference, Chris Voss will say that you know that tactical empathy is working when you get the that's right response. So unfortunately, you're not gonna get totally like them being like, oh, you're right. I'm totally, you know, thank you for validating. I feel great, I feel perfect. But you might see a softening, right? That wall coming down. And that person might say, Yeah, that's right. I I often may not see that that's right, but I get the, I feel the wall coming down, and they might explain more of their experience, right? If they go, oh, and then this happened and you're doing this, and you may, you know, you are judging me if you and I go, I I see that you're really hurt by something I said. They're like, yeah, and you know, I was hoping that you'd understand and you didn't, and blah, blah, blah. So even if you're just getting them to open up more about their experience, that is them responding to, okay, I get, I see that you're trying to understand my side. Right. Okay, I'm gonna give you more on my side. Right. That's when you know, ah, it's working. If you're not getting that, if you're getting shut down, like, no, that's not, oh no, then you need to validate more. You need to maybe ask more questions or try to validate a different part of their emotions. Or maybe something that you know is um underneath what you're seeing. Like if they're angry and you know that sadness or hurt are underneath, it'd be like, yeah, I understand why you're furious. Yeah, I also can really imagine that you're feeling scared. And that makes sense. It's totally normal to feel scared in this situation, right? And then you so you see that softness. And here's a here's an advanced tip. If someone's someone's shutting you out, right? No, I don't want to talk about it. No, you're wrong. I don't I don't know what I'm feeling, right? This kind of wall. Validate the wall, validate the feeling of the wall. Okay. I I get that you don't want to talk about it. I get that you don't know what you're feeling. It's hard, it's hard to figure that out right now when things are so intense. Whoa, right? So you might be even validating on validating the shutdown, the feelings that lead up to shutdown. Right? This is like if you're able to do that, that is so it works wonders. So that is step-by-step validation. The mistakes that people tend to make when they validate are the first one I see is always they go, it's more of a mistake of what they think about validation. Because validation online is like used all I keep using all online, but like I think in popular conversation now, people are using the word validation to mean just agreeing, right? Like, I can't validate them. They're being crazy, they're saying all these things that aren't aren't true. Validating is not agreeing. Okay. So even if you're seeing someone yell at you and accuse you of things that you don't remember happening, um, you don't say, Yeah, you're right. I was being a jerk and I was, you know, judging you and making you wanting you for you to feel terrible. You're right. I'm validating you. No, no, no. It's I see that you're you're you look at the emotion, like, oh, they're angry, they're hurt, they're, you know, whatever, and say, I understand why you feel hurt given that you thought I was judging you. You could just you could just stop with the I I see that you're hurt and it makes sense. Let's talk about it, right? But you could also validate that they have a thought. You might not agree with that thought or that belief, right? You don't be like, yeah, I'm a jerk. You'd be like, I I totally understand why you feel hurt given that you think I'm being a jerk. Right? You're validating their their their world. So that's one mistake that people tend to make is I have to agree with everything they're saying. It doesn't make any sense. No, you just have to find their emotional experience, the kernel of truth, and be like, I I acknowledge it, I see it, and I get why you're having that. Or I might not get it, but I'm not committed to figuring it out with you, right? Um the other mistake people make is jumping into problem solving or cheerleading or some other kind of really helpful behavior, right? So this is this is where people get stuck a lot. I mean, there's a I'm I'm actually gonna link this um video to the show notes. So it's gonna be if you want to watch. It's called Is Not About the Nail. It's a really funny skit where a man is sitting with his um his partner and she's saying, Oh, I have a I have a headache and uh so much pressure and I don't know what to do and it feels awful. And he's looking at her face and there's a nail coming out of her head. It's like a joke, but there's a literally a nail coming out of her head in this video. And he's like, Yeah, you have a nail in your head. Like, let's just take it out. And she's like, No, that's not what I mean. And so you could see the impasse happening, right? And he kept being like, I'm trying to help you here. Take that nail out and you will stop feeling these things. And she's like, No, I just want you to listen. And in that moment, he validated, like, yeah, okay, that sounds hard. And she was like, Thank you. So even when you are trying to be helpful, that can be a lot of impasses. I mean, I I know that the situation often comes up with someone you care about, right? Otherwise, why would you keep getting like butting heads about something? Right. It might be something like, I'm trying to do something good for us, or I'm trying to convince you of seeing my side that would ultimately make us closer. You could see that I love you and I care about you. I'm not judging you, or um, this decision would be good for us, or getting help would be better for you, right? So we jump into the problem solving and like advice giving. But that is the same thing as watching someone you love trying to walk up that mountain and saying, oh, just it's no big deal. Just walk up that mountain. You just one foot of the right of the other. It's so easy. And that person goes, You're not seeing this from my side yet. You're not seeing the challenges that I'm facing. Even if, even if you were to give the same exact advice, even if you just stand next to them and see how hard that mountain looks, saying, okay, one foot in front of the other will go a longer way, right? So, first, before you jump into problem solving, commit to seeing the problem from their perspective. And I know, I know that when I'm saying this, you're like, but I want for them to see my perspective. Like, I don't care, I don't like their, you know, I don't want to validate their emotions. And when I talk about this, sometimes people rightly so say, I don't want to validate when someone is being hurtful to me. Like, what if they're being like abusive and they're not seeing my side? And that is a lot of what happens with these impasses. When two people feel a strong emotion and they don't feel heard by the other person, they're gonna scream louder, right? I want this. No, I want this, no, I so it almost becomes like a competition for who's gonna be heard, right? Whose side are we gonna take right now? Who's right? And when you get into that battle, then no one's hearing each other. You're just both gonna lose. Right. So actually, there is research showing that when someone feels like they're being empathized with, they're more likely to extend empathy to someone else. So if you're like, I want this person to see my side, I want them to commit to understanding my world. What doesn't work is keep screaming louder and louder and louder. That just creates a problem. But is for you to take you to be the bigger person, you to take the step and go, okay, I understand, I see what you're feeling and I understand it. Don't say, but this is how I feel, because that almost negates what you what you first said. But they're like, okay, I see and I understand technical empathy. There we go. I I'm seeing your side. You can watch them soften, and then they'd be more open to yours. Right? At that point, you can offer, I get you're feeling this way, it makes sense to me. Let get that that's right, see the softening, and then and then you look at this the mountain together. This is the problem that we're dealing with. At that point, then you can kind of bring in I statements to describe your side, like I feel this, I'm reacting to this, I really think that this is important, right? But actually, if um, and and that that's a really important part. You want to validate, validate, soften, get on the same page, and even you can picture yourselves looking at a mountain together, right? Like, if two, if you're struggling with a loved one who is, you know, drinking a lot and you're trying, you both, you both have the same problem. You and your loved one have the same problem. You want that person to be happy. They want to be happy, they just think that drinking is this is the way there, right? So you have different paths on the mountain to the same thing where it's just like they just want to feel relief from their pain. Um, and so you're like, I totally get why, you know, when you're feeling anxious, when you're feeling bad, you drink. I understand that you're feeling like it's scared of giving that up, you know, and I'm seeing you get more and more unhappy. I'm seeing you withdraw more, I'm seeing you um hurt yourself more. I'm scared about that. That makes me worried. What do you think? So after you validate and get on the same page, look at that mountain together. So really look at it like I'm looking at this problem together. This is a neutral thing that we're looking at together and taking on together. At that point, then you could share how you're feeling and then share options. And this is a really cool strategy here. Share options like within the realm of what you want, but give them options to choose from. So if you're like, I really want this person to get treatment, I want them to go get into a detox center and quit drinking, you'd be like, Well, what do you think? I'm, you know, we're worried about your happiness. What do you think? Uh do you think it makes sense to go to a therapist or like a detox center or a substance abuse um clinic? Or what about um a running club, right? Like you can offer suggestions within your goal, they achieve your goal, but let that person make that choice among those options. There is research showing that if you give someone options and they choose one, they're way more likely to do it and commit to it than if they feel like someone told them or forced them to do it. Right. So you could the sneaky thing is give the options that you want, right? Um, I try this on my son, it never really works. But you it if it's like, I want him to get his teeth brushed, it's like validate. All right, we got, you know, you you're bread, you have sugar all over your teeth. We gotta work on that. We gotta deal with that. Um, do you want to brush your brush your teeth or do you want mommy to brush your teeth? Right? You're still achieving that goal of brushing teeth, but you're giving you're giving an option. So they have they exercise agency. So they feel like, not feel like they are a partner with you in figuring out a solution together to this problem, right? So those are my those are my tips for how to get through to someone. So if you just feel like I have to talk about this problem or this topic, and we always butt heads and I'm dreading it, and it's not gonna go out, always ends up terribly, always ends up in an explosion. Remember those those skills. One, figure out what your goal is. What do you want to get out of this? What do you what is the one thing that if you achieved, you'd be like, all right, I'll take it. Two, tactical empathy or validation. The steps are one, find their emotion or ask about it. Just just find what they're feeling, think about why it makes sense, commit to understanding their world, and then communicating that understanding and do that enough until you get that that's right, that relief, that softening. And then you look at the problem together and you'd be like, what can we do about this? Here are a couple options that I'm thinking about. What do you think? Right? Try that out. I really want to hear how that goes. Um, I will link also never split the difference, negotiating as if your life uh depended on it by Chris Voss. Um another thing, too, is that if you're like, wow, that's never gonna work. This is not this. I I know my loved one, uh, I know my sister, I know my my son, like they're so emotionally intense. Like, you know, if I validate, it just explodes. There's a really cool study that I just read by Quo and colleagues that was published in 2022. I'll also link this one that says that when you validate someone who have has emotion dysregulation, have trouble um dealing with their emotions, if you validate their emotions, it actually goes really well. They feel really good about it if they were feeling sadness or shame. So if you're dealing with someone who's just emotionally dysregulated, struggling with their emotions, and they're feeling sad or ashamed, validation is so powerful. Part of it is because if they feel sadness or shame, having like someone on their side feeling resourced, feeling seen and understood is solving the problem, right? It's like, oh, I feel, I feel seen, I feel, I feel heard, I feel accepted for my experience. I'm not alone. That could be so powerful. So again, uh never split the difference by Chris Voss. I'll link it in the in the show notes. And uh, if you want to practice validation, you can leave a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this with a friend. I really want these skills to just be out there for anyone who needs it. So send this as someone who could really benefit from getting a little movement and getting on the same page with someone. Well, I will see you next week. Bye guys. By accessing this podcast, you acknowledge that the host of this podcast makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information purposes only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. 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